Remixes Versus New Arrangements

The Moonlit Door · #1 March 24, 2007, 9:49 AM

I'm always interested to hear new versions of the Doctor Who theme, but I'm aware that so many, including Murray Gold's various themes are remixes.

That's why when David Arnold produced a new version for Big Finish several years back, it was all the more exciting. It was a fresh interpretation of the theme, and no sampling, apart from possibly the end title hiss. For me, it reinvigorated not only Paul McGann's Doctor, but also the series, and gave it a new aspect for a new decade.

Murray Gold has been vocal about his admiration for Delia Derbyshire's original theme arrangement, and that he viewed his job as merely adding to it to create a fuller, more modern sound. The score he produced for the 2005 trailer used a version of the bassline with no samples, and I thought it was a great result. I was somewhat disappointed that the samples had to creep in to endorse what he'd made, though I realise that recognition of the theme by audiences old and new was the key requirement for the production team.

It's likely that Gold will develop his theme more as he continues to score the series, but I wondered how much respect for the original music could limit musicians' ability to create something new. Certainly many musicians on the Whomix website have focused heavily on Peter Howell's 1980 version as a starting point.

Has anyone here attempted a totally original arrangement of the theme? Did it work out, or did earlier themes influence the sound too much?

MI7 · #2 March 24, 2007, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

The score he produced for the 2005 trailer used a version of the bassline with no samples, and I thought it was a great result.

Ironically the bassline was pretty much the only thing *added* to the final theme that wasn't in the trailer theme. Things were taken away such as the second Melody 1 on the end, but the only thing added was the Vortex/TARDIS sound at the end of the bassline intro. The Dalek gun sounds have been present since the trailer theme.

Oh and if you're referring to the actual Derbyshire theme melody ("woo-oo's" to you uneducated hordes) they were in the trailer theme too....exactly the same as the final theme. I don't get your argument

.

The Moonlit Door · #3 March 24, 2007, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by MI7

Ironically the bassline was pretty much the only thing *added* to the final theme that wasn't in the trailer theme.

Yes, you're right that there were samples in the trailer theme, I should have been more specific. It was the bassline I was thinking of. The Gold theme was produced to reintroduce as well as introduce the series to viewers, so I accept it couldn't be anything else but a remix.

I hear a massive amount of remixes on the internet but few truly unique and original versions of the theme. As I mentioned, Peter Howell is such a massive influence to some that all their themes sound like a homage.

I don't consider this an argument at all, I'm interested to hear what experiences musicians have had in their attempts or successes at creating new arrangements of the theme rather than sampling old ones.

MI7 · #4 March 24, 2007, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

Yes, you're right that there were samples in the trailer theme, I should have been more specific. It was the bassline I was thinking of. The Gold theme was produced to reintroduce as well as introduce the series to viewers, so I accept it couldn't be anything else but a remix.

It's a rearrangement

. Not a remix. Despite the bassline and melody being in there, it *isn't* the original theme 'with bits'. The bassline actually fades out after the bassline intro and isn't present for the rest of the theme, whereas the hisses and flows from the original theme aren't present at all.

Murray added so much of his own such as the snares, string arrangements, brass and sound effects. I know you don't want this to be an argument, but I would always contend that the Gold theme is a totally new arrangement and not a "remix" at all.

Jez · #5 March 24, 2007, 4:51 PM

Technically speaking, in terms of musical terminology, it is a "remix". However, I can also accept "Rearrangement" because quite often, they are the same thing. And in Gold's defence, he has added a hell of a lot to it.

MI7 · #6 March 24, 2007, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jez

Technically speaking, in terms of musical terminology, it is a "remix". However, I can also accept "Rearrangement" because quite often, they are the same thing. And in Gold's defence, he has added a hell of a lot to it.

I'd still disagree with it being a remix even technically speaking. A remix would imply it was just the Derbyshire theme with some bits added, when really it's more Murray's work that just happens to sample some elements of the Derbyshire arrangement.

The Moonlit Door · #7 March 25, 2007, 5:26 AM

Originally Posted by MI7

It's a rearrangement

. Not a remix. Despite the bassline and melody being in there, it *isn't* the original theme 'with bits'. The bassline actually fades out after the bassline intro and isn't present for the rest of the theme, whereas the hisses and flows from the original theme aren't present at all.

Murray added so much of his own such as the snares, string arrangements, brass and sound effects. I know you don't want this to be an argument, but I would always contend that the Gold theme is a totally new arrangement and not a "remix" at all.

How can it be totally new when he's had to incorporate someone else's work? I understand what you're both saying about the quantity of new material in Gold's mix making it more than a remix — I agree. I used his theme as an example because due to the project's requirements, he had to
incorporate someone else's work, whereas with David Arnold, he didn't.

In any case, what I really wanted to know was this:

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

Has anyone here attempted a totally original arrangement of the theme? Did it work out, or did earlier themes influence the sound too much?

Superkid11 · #8 March 25, 2007, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

Has anyone here attempted a totally original arrangement of the theme? Did it work out, or did earlier themes influence the sound too much?

For some reason a totally original arrangement sounds to me like something that differs completely, but since that's not what you meant...

I think I've heard a few things on whomix that would count as that. =P "Epic" by Oddsprite sounds alot like Gold's version but it's pretty much completely different. It does use the Derbyshire theme as a base though...
But if it had a totally new baseline it would be original. The only connection to the other themes would be the way the baseline goes and a few sounds, pretty much what connects all the themes.

MI7 · #9 March 25, 2007, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

How can it be totally new when he's had to incorporate someone else's work? I understand what you're both saying about the quantity of new material in Gold's mix making it more than a remix â€” I agree. I used his theme as an example because due to the project's requirements, he had to
incorporate someone else's work, whereas with David Arnold, he didn't.

In any case, what I really wanted to know was this:

Originally it was a lot less like "someone else's work" - Russell T. Davies told him to go back and make it more like the original after he showed his original mix.

And no, there has been no totally original arrangements. If it was a "totally original arrangement" it wouldn't be the Doctor Who theme as written by Ron Grainer and realised by Delia Derbyshire, would it?

Oh and I hated David Arnold's theme (which is odd, since I love all the work he's done with James Bond) worst of the bunch next to Keff's....out of interest, which is your least favourite? (Arnold's wasn't a "totally new arrangement", either, if it was a totally new arrangement it would go melody 2, middle 8, melody 1, melody 1 or something. It still followed the tried and tested theme pattern, just with a techno/grungey sound.

)

The Moonlit Door · #10 March 25, 2007, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by MI7

(Arnold's wasn't a "totally new arrangement", either, if it was a totally new arrangement it would go melody 2, middle 8, melody 1, melody 1 or something. It still followed the tried and tested theme pattern, just with a techno/grungey sound.

)

Perhaps they should stop saying: 'Theme arranged byâ€¦" on merchandise then. It's giving us all the wrong idea.

Originally Posted by MI7

Originally it was a lot less like "someone else's work" - Russell T. Davies told him to go back and make it more like the original after he showed his original mix.

That's a real shame, but at least he's able to put more of his own stuff in there now.

Originally Posted by MI7

And no, there has been no totally original arrangements. If it was a "totally original arrangement" it wouldn't be the Doctor Who theme as written by Ron Grainer and realised by Delia Derbyshire, would it?

So no-one's had a go at creating a version of the theme from scratch then? Great, I'll be on my way.

MI7 · #11 March 25, 2007, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

So no-one's had a go at creating a version of the theme from scratch then? Great, I'll be on my way.

Well Ron Grainer tried in the 70s but it was some crappy disco thing...that's all really.

And yeah they should probably stop saying "arranged by" but there isn't really a better word for what they do...Realised maybe? Mixed sounds too informal...

Superkid11 · #12 March 25, 2007, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

So no-one's had a go at creating a version of the theme from scratch then? Great, I'll be on my way.

Trying to do that would be... I dunno, a little pointless since it wouldn't be recognized as a Doctor Who theme. That'd be like trying to make a theme song for your own series. (Something I feel I may have to do in the future if I get the career I'm hoping to get... or at least get somebody else to do. But I want to have a go at it myself.)

The Moonlit Door · #13 March 25, 2007, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Superkid11

Trying to do that would be... I dunno, a little pointless since it wouldn't be recognized as a Doctor Who theme.

No, I don't mean change the theme, just not using samples at all, so it's totally yours and not someone else's.

MI7 · #14 March 25, 2007, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

No, I don't mean change the theme, just not using samples at all, so it's totally yours and not someone else's.

Even not using samples wouldn't mean it was totally yours - you'd still be following the way it was written by Ron Grainer originally. Probably the closest to a new arrangement *is* Murray's closing theme - he added the countermelody and the melody one loop at the end. But it still has the 1-2-3-4 formula that the others have followed.

Superkid11 · #15 March 25, 2007, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Moonlit Door

No, I don't mean change the theme, just not using samples at all, so it's totally yours and not someone else's.

Not using samples? That's been done. I'm not sure I can point out anything on whomix but I'm pretty sure I've heard songs on there that had no samples.

MI7 · #16 March 25, 2007, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Superkid11

Not using samples? That's been done. I'm not sure I can point out anything on whomix but I'm pretty sure I've heard songs on there that had no samples.

No samples has been done before by Peter Howell, Dom Glynn, Keff McCulloch and David Arnold

.

The Moonlit Door · #17 March 25, 2007, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by MI7

Even not using samples wouldn't mean it was totally yours - you'd still be following the way it was written by Ron Grainer originally.

No, but they'd be your sounds wouldn't they.

Originally Posted by MI7

No samples has been done before by Peter Howell, Dom Glynn, Keff McCulloch and David Arnold

.

But has anyone here tried it â€” for pity's sake?

Superkid11 · #18 March 25, 2007, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by MI7

Well Ron Grainer tried in the 70s but it was some crappy disco thing...that's all really.

One of the whomixers did something like that too. I can't remember the name of it but it actually sounded pretty good despite it causing mental images of Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker in their Doctor costumes having a dance contest.
EDIT: It was Scooby Who by JeX.

Originally Posted by MI7

No samples has been done before by Peter Howell, Dom Glynn, Keff McCulloch and David Arnold

.

Oh yeah.

The Moonlit Door · #19 March 25, 2007, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Superkid11

One of the whomixers did something like that too. I can't remember the name of it but it actually sounded pretty good despite it causing mental images of Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker in their Doctor costumes having a dance contest.

That would be a sight.

Danny Stewart · #20 March 26, 2007, 12:31 AM

How unfortunate! I go away for a weekend and then people start discussing the Doctor Who theme. What timing...

I've done a number of arrangements of the Doctor Who theme that use no samples whatsoever. Probably my best one is titled "The Zero Room," produced entirely on the Arturia CS-80V software synthesizer a little over a year ago now. I've just uploaded it to the site, and you can listen to it here. Dominic Glynn called this version "most impressive - moody and classy" when I shared it with him several months ago.

EDIT: I've uploaded another version I did (again without samples). This one is called "The Lost Dimension" and is available here. I finished this one a couple months after "The Zero Room." Dom called this one a "really impressive laid back, ambient, chill out version."

EDIT 2: While I'm at it, here's my Howell, Glynn, and McCulloch theme recreations. Bear in mind these are several months old and were never finished to my satisfaction! The McCulloch one is also a more loose recreation than the other two because I'm no great fan of Keff McCulloch or any of his work. I've been meaning to go back and at least tweak these considerably if not start them over from scratch. (No samples in these either!) The reason the Glynn one sounds a fair bit better than the other two (at least in my opinion) is because I worked closely with Dominic Glynn himself to create it. His advice and assistance was invaluable in perfecting many of the sounds, and it's my proudest recreation to date.