What do you care? You watched the episode -- you don't need a synopsis! :P

I do. And, er, it's my site. Thanks. :)

Quite right, "Mussolini" :P

I'm starting to think Danny has the Maryland phonebook open on his desk, and is calling each person in turn and asking them to come here and vote -2...

Thanks. ;)

True but you put them on all the other discussion threads so why leave it off this one?

Right...............


I like the fact that in next weeks episode we get to see

And a whole ****ing Dalek fleet! Squee!

I'm hoping they will be good as I was getting bored of them in the New York episodes last year. I just hope this finale is better than last years but, in theory, that shouldn't be hard. :)

Ah! Practice what you preach and allow other opinions, I enjoyed last year's finale :P

You got me. :P Well I enjoyed bits of it but I felt Jack wasn't in it enough and compared with the 2 finales before it I think it was the weakest one.

Does the size of the fleet really matter? Either they can be stopped, or they can't. They're Daleks!

Oh, and spoiler alert: reset button. :rolleyes:

I love my friends. :D

It's Megan's fault that the scale goes down to -2. I was only going to do -1. ;)

You're almost right: we all watched the episode together, bonded over our loss of brain-cells, and then I actually made an account for the purpose of voting -2. :D

Oh you know you agree with me. Somehow it managed to be more pointless and stupid than Voyage of the Damned (unfortunately the Christmas portion of this episode lacked the genius that is Murray's THE STOWAWAY :P).

And yeah...maybe the whole It's A Wonderful Life meets Doctor Who thing works for some people, but not for me. Wow! The Doctor is gone! Look at all of the awful things that have happened without him! Oh noes!! It's okay. There's a reset button for that. Just forget this episode ever happened. Well obviously things would be terrible without the Doctor! If things were fine and dandy without him there would be no point to the show! >.<

I totally agree that the episode is pointless with the beginning and end of it totally uninteresting, but I really liked a lot of the ideas in it. The way the characters responded to the crises they were plunged into and the ideas of alternative consequences to things kind of appeals to me. And awesome avatar, Megan.

I really loved the ending, if I'm honest. It was very nightmarish, like you're in a corridor and everywhere you turn Saddamm Hussain's face is there laughing at you, driving you to insanity. And I always get goosebumps when the Tardis is in that state with the cloister bell ringing.

It's not a boring "RTD must die" tirade, many of us really hated this episode and have a long list of reasons why, that, therefore, is why we want him to die.

Go check the Midnight poll and you'll see that I myself gave it a 9/10, thought it was brilliant. RTD can write good episodes, but I don't think this is one of them at all.

So you're insulting someone and trying to toss their opinion out of a discussion poll? That was a very immature reply.

There's no need for all this. "Well I liked it, so hah!" Or even "I didn't like it, so STFU!". - All my STFU has been aimed at RTD, not forum members.

If people wish to state how they liked it, or didn't like it, they're perfectly free to. Even making fun of RTD. But stop sniping each other even in subtle ways, please.

Oh yeah, I liked that bit, but I missed most of it because I started rofling. It's not usual that I actually rofl. Did the cloister bell ring? What!?

Well I haven't seen any, all I've seen is pretty much 'it's shit because RTD wrote it," and then the usual GTFO stuff. And, Kody, if you're admitting you have liked his episodes, but say this is weak, why are you suddenly all for getting rid of him? Should we get rid of all writers who write a bad episode once in a while?

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot see a picture of Patrick Stewart giving someone the finger as a reason why someone dislikes an episode.

Out of the 26 episodes he's wrote, I've enjoyed about 8-9 of them, if that.

When he writes bad ones, such as this and the season ending for last year, they're spectacularly bad and feel downright insulting to me. So yes, while he can write good the bad far outweighs it, in my opinion.

As for. "I haven't seen any", I haven't seen any full lists from people like Rat or such with all the highlights of the episode either. Just random mentions of the bits you all liked. So go ahead and write out a big list or proper review of why it's so amazing and I'll do the same with my views, alright?

These discussion threads usually seem to lack such reviews or in depth thoughts.

This, is meant to be a 'joke'. http://www.google.com/search?source=...=Google+Search

If you want a serious list of reasons, I'd expect the same from someone who is saying this is some of the best television ever. ;)

Well for a start, there was the way that the story was made up of two parts. It's not *about* the Doctor, as such, and yet it was all about him, life without him, how things transpire. I thought Catherine Tate gave an absolutely sterling performance. The story is about entirely about her. Usually Doctor-Lite episodes are also without companions but this centered on Donna. She really had her chance to shine. I thought it was a brilliant way of telling us how important the Doctor is, and very thought provoking with the choices and how they affect life, it really made me think about that sort of thing.

Ok, I will admit that the premise was all a bit rushed. They were on another planet, and yet there was oriental writing everywhere, like it was in China. The whole beetle stuff was not very well explained, and the ending was a bit rushed. The Doctor didn't seem to think much about 'Bad Wolf', and yes, it was a bit silly for him to suddenly say "Badwolf? Oshitz end of universe".

The sense of dread and bleakness was very well conveyed. The more dread and bleakness you have in a story set on earth, the more you think about it, and I like stories that make me think. It really showed a believable way that people would react. The optimists making the best of it, but the knowing that they are actually helpless is such a sad thought. They are just sitting around and "letting the army deal with it", but even they don't know what the hell to do. It's scary. Again, it's the making you think. Can you imagine the helplessness of being in that sort of situation?

There was a lot of mystery about it,and I felt that Rose excelled in this episode. She was no longer the whining, moaning thicko who pined for the Doctor, but was now mysterious and clever, she knows everything that Donna does not, and again, Tate, being such a fantastic actress, showed her confusion realistically. How would you react if some strange blond was following you around and knowing everything about you and your future?

My only other criticism is that we didn't know much of the villain. Yes, we know the Trickster was involved. But to have the Doctor meet him and thrash it out with him would have been entertaining. RTD would have had the opportunity to make a more clear explanation of what was happening had he been given the time, but hey, the centerpiece of the story is life without the Doctor. I will admit that the beginning and end were somewhat hasty.

Great performances from everyone involved, (and hey, did anyone notice that the fortune teller was Chantho from Utopia?). Cribben's acting as the italians were taken away was heartbreaking and brilliant to watch, and seeing Donna's mum cave in from her loud, feisty personality really conveyed the effects of the events, the contrast was outstanding.

This story was dark and frightening, so I don't understand... isn't this what the Doctor Who fans want, after all?

I challenge anybody try and find me an old school episode with this much realism and bleakness and accuracy of our behavior.

There's, your list, Kody. Your serve.

Can't get an Old School one but I thought I'd say that Midnight displayed some real "humanity" in it.

But hang on, RTD wrote it.

I suppose Kody's GTFO and STFU is just an opinion but I think RTD would learn more if there was a bad reaction to one of his episodes from the NuWho fans because this is what he is aiming Who at.

He wants to introduce Dr.Who to a new bunch of kids as it was back in the Classic Days. He is in charge of the show (for now) and he wants it written the way he prefers it (and so do the NuWho fans). I've heard him say countless times in the commentaries that "Classic Fans won't like this" and "the Forums have just exploded" but he cares more about what the New Fans like and want as they are his chosen and primary audience.

But there are Classic Fans who like the majority of the NuWho eps and they are people like RTD (he s an old fan after all).

But at the end of the day everybody will have a different opinion about each episode and thats what these thread are for.

Quoted for lulz.

*salute*

My main issue for this is one I'm probably going to keep repeating, so I apologize if I sound like a broken record, is is not my intent. But. The story served no purpose and it was all 'fixed' in the end ala' reset button style.

No lasting effects, unless Donna is really upset about it. Rose could have come back just fine without any of that happening.

The regeneration failing was a sign of a lacking imagination in my eyes as well. He should have regenerated as soon as they fished him out of the water. "Not making it out in time." Seemed very shoehorned in.

Rose was written poorly, in my eyes. She's not a bimbo and not a genius, but somewhere in between. The line that pissed me off was the whole..

Rose: It's in a state of flux.
Donna: What does that MEAN?!
Rose: I don't know! *silly grin* Sounds like something the Doctor would say!

That pissed me off because Rose should be able to grasp the simple concept of something being in flux and wouldn't be so silly about it all. The really 'techno babble' moments she had didn't fit either. It's like they are trying to turn her into a version of the Doctor and that really doesn't work for me.

Then at the end, how is "Bad Wolf" plastered over everything? I know what she did in the parting of ways, but did she see this far into the future and get it all setup and waiting for the Doctor?

I'm also a little tired and bored of "The Doctor is God" and every companion is the most important person in all of creation (even if they are unemployed, a medical student, or an office-worker). And everything's measured in billions and zillions. It's this insane over-the-topness that grates. Which is why I liked Midnight, where the Doctor was more vulnerable and mortal - if an unpredictable genius with a knack for survival.

Even Moffat and Tennant have said he's like a normal guy, with insane wits that can talk his way through or out of anything, he's not a god.

Like many other people we've grown up with the idea of post nuclear holocaust - Survivors, The Last Train, Threads etc - and so the events in 'Turn Left' were not so very novel or shocking. And there was a thread of unreality through it all - Donna winning the raffle, minor characters being able to see the Trickster on her back, standing outside and gawping at a nuclear explosion, the load of 'FOTD' alt-world editing jumps from situation to situation, Rose's weirdness. They all served to distance me from getting involved, specially in comparison with 'Midnight' which absolutely glued me to the screen.

Oh, last but not least, I suppose it's a minor thing and not related to RTD or the script. But DAMN that bettle sucked. Seriously. It looked like the props crew picked it up from a local toy shop on the way to the set. In this day and age you should be able to get something a little bit better. :rolleyes:

You'll notice I used 'in my eyes' or 'in my opinion' a lot, the reason for that annoying repetitiveness is because this is -my- personal opinion. Might not be right, but this is what the episode was to me and why I seem so vehemently against it.

Hopefully that offers some insight. :)

The good things about this was the acting, Wilf stole the stage, CT had some 'wow' moments and Tennant at the end when he was told 'Bad Wolf' once again showed us how much can be conveyed with a simple look.

Oh, hearing the cloister bell again rocked as well.


Out of curiosity, did you or anyone else tie this to SJA? It's the name of that faceless guy that erased her in 'Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane'. I thought that was a cool crossover at least.

Really? I need to go watch her again, completely missed that.

It is, but in my personal opinion it served no purpose, was all 'fixed' in the end and felt extremely shoddy. :\

I still haven't seen enough to think of something off hand, maybe Danny or another member can point out an example.

Truly a thing of the beauty, I absolutely loved this episode. Best of S4 so far. I loved the ideas that went about in it, that sort of reminded me of Children of Men. Brilliant, 10/10.

Im not seeing any reasons as to why people didnt like this episode. So far it's only the usual "lalz rtd wrote dis".

Please read my post above yours, thanks. If you really think that's what we're all saying, well.. not much I can do. :)

I was still typing when you posted. :P

Funny you should mention Threads actually, thats what I thought of...

Also, if you had paid any attention in the flashbacks, the Doctor seemed to be in a daydream or some sort of transe, and it took Donna to snap him out of it, also I find it hard to see how he can regenerate underwater.

Maybe he can't -- but as you saw, he was recovered and wheeled off on a stretcher. He could have regenerated then. If you recall the TV movie, it took almost a day for Sylvester McCoy to finally regenerate into Paul McGann. It's not "oh shit, better regenerate within the next couple minutes or else that's it!" The Time Lord regenerative process is a lot more flexible than that. I'm still in awe that "it must have happened too fast for him to regenerate" was the best RTD could come up with.

Oh yes, I'm with Danny and Kody re the regeneration, it was somewhat hasty, a bit like the explanation for the planet vanishing in PiC. But then again, it's not really an explanation, it's just a wild guess that a soldier made, so nobody really knew. You're right though, the real reason would have been nice to see.

You were wrong, Ross. ;)

I don't watch SJA. But wasn't the Trickster a character played by Lee Cornes in 'Kinda'? Are they the same character?

Fun fact, Lee Cornes has had minor roles in Blackadder, Bottom and The Young Ones.

She may very well have been how you described her when we last saw her, but don't forget that she's been in a different universe for two years now. She has had time to educate herself. Surely having those experiences has matured her a lot, especially when she was put in situations where lives were in her hands. Maybe, Kody, you didn't like how much mysterious she had become, but that's your opinion and I respect that. Personally, I like it a lot, and she sure is better as someone clever than as a piece of eye candy, what people like about her appearance so much I have no idea!

You saw how she was in the Series 1 finale when the Doctor left her, she realized how little she actually had once he had gone, so maybe being forced to accept that he was gone showed her how she'd taken life for granted. I fear I may be getting a bit fanciful here though, so I'll just point that anyone who travels with an alien and sees the universe is bound to come out more intelligent. Except maybe for Mel Bush.

Your support is appreciated. :D

Oh, I certainly agree with you. I was just worried that pushing the scale even lower than -1 would draw some criticism. But whatevs... it totally deserves the score it got, so I really don't care.

And yeah, The Stowaway would have totally made this episode. :D

Very well said.

It's still laziness on the part of RTD. And as I said above, the Time Lord regenerative process is extremely flexible. There would have had to have been a damned good reason for him not to regenerate, and I sincerely doubt that there was one. It was a fairly ordinary situation, really.

No he wasn't, he was bang on.

I don't think so... and if so, then no they're not.

You're kind of missing his point. He's saying that RTD tried to make her extremely intelligent, but then she was unable to grasp such simple concepts as an object being in a state of flux, and laughing at them because "oh look, I sound like the Doctor, tee hee!" I also hated how RTD was trying to turn Rose into another Doctor character. Not revealing her name, for starters, as well as many of her lines and mannerisms would have fit right in coming from David Tennant. Frankly, I find that offensive. Rose is nothing special. Turning her into a human version of the Doctor is insulting.

...I think I agree with everyone now.

In your opinion. But in his, he wasn't.

Opinion =/= Fact.

Details.

OSHITZ RLY?

YA RLY

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

And I realise that using Wikipedia to support an argument is pretty shit :p

Fact ≘ Perception = Opinion

I'm pretty sure he didn't as he was tightly wrapped in the stretcher (as if he were dead) and the UNIT guy said he was dead while they were packing him away. It might be that I haven't understood your point though.

The Trixster was in Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane in SJA.

It was referred to in Confidential.

It was a woman who exploited the past (like a right/left turn) it was SJS or her friend dying by falling off of Brighton Pier.

She somehow trapped SJS in "nothing" (just white) and offered SJS' friend the choice to swap her own position for that of SJ (hanging from the pier). She took it and all of a sudden her friend developed a life and SJS was dead and unknown to the world.

Maria had some object which prevented the change affecting her so she still remembered SJS and fought to get her back.

In the end they bought SJS back by getting her friend to say "no" to the trixster and refuse his offer he made years back of saving her and saving her life for SJS'. I think the Trixster is not allowed to refuse peoples offers. It can only change the past with permission.

And the Trixster was being helped by the Graske.

I suggest you watch it, it was actually brilliant and the best ep of the series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whateve..._to_Sarah_Jane

No, you haven't :P I'm sure Danny meant that he should have regenerated then.

Hmmm, Don't get it.

I understand Danny meant that the Doctor was alive on the stretcher and could regenerate then when he was in fact dead.

And he was in some sort of trance under the barriers and drowned under there. He died body goes down river, found ... (to beginning)

Um, wtf? Do you not understand regeneration?

I do, surely you can't regenerate once you are dead. Only before and when nearing death.

Wikipedia: "The 1996 TV movie showed the Doctor's regeneration delayed for more than three hours (he is declared dead on the operating table at 10:03 PM [...] with the Eighth Doctor explicitly stating that he was "dead" prior to regeneration..."

Eat it.

I mean seriously, what the hell? You can only regenerate if you're dead. Otherwise there's nothing to trigger the regeneration!

The Seventh was the only Doctor we see to regenerate when actually, physically dead. I believe that even then the reason given for the delayed regeneration was a side effect of the anaesthetic. We don't see the Sixth die, and the regeneration could be triggered from all number of factors. What we do see is each Doctor saying something like "I'm going to regenerate blah blah" and then they do. They're always alive when it starts, not dead. This is also backed up by the Master in both Utopia and LotTL, when he has to physically trigger the process both times. Ditto the Ninth Doctor in The Parting of the Ways, when he says he is "doing it right now". Hell even the Third Doctor thinks he's going to die without help in starting the regeneration process, again implying it isn't automatic immediately upon death. What we have been shown is regeneration can only be used to "cheat death" by repairing all injuries to the Time Lords body by completely rewriting their physiology.

And even if he did regenerate, he still regenerated by drowning in a totally flooded room.. This nullifies both arguments. If the process was automatic upon death as you imply, there's no reason to say that it would wait until a safe location is reached for the process to begin. In fact it seems far more likely that an automatic process would simply result in him drowning and regenerating over and over until all his lives were used up. There's been no magic safety feature seen that says that Time Lords only regenerate when it is "safe" to do so. In fact, we see the opposite: the Seventh regenerates in a sealed, refridgerated room; the Sixth regenerates when hostile creatures enter the TARDIS, the Fourth regenerates immediately rather than waiting for his body to be brought to the safety of the TARDIS, etc etc.
If the process was triggered when the Time Lord is still alive (as TV apparently shows us), then there would be no reason for him to, as as I stated above he'd simply drown all over again.
Besides, who says he even wanted to regenerate and survive at that point? He seemed pretty dark and depressed, and only left when Donna reminded him to leave.

By the way, the source you referenced also states, on two seperate occasions, that the Doctor is half human. Nice when we can pick and choose continuity, isn't it :rolleyes:.