Maybe he didn't want to regenerate... he seemed to be in "no mercy/feeling sorry for myself and dont want to go on anymore" mode during that scene on the staircase.

And Ronn, I was wrong, so let's leave it at that.

Because RTD has destroyed the concept of regeneration. See my Last of the Time Lords review for more bashing.

Analysis of that kind of safety could not take place on a biological level -- I am saying that regeneration waits for physical safety (something which can be determined on a biological level, i.e. not occurring while underwater).

Regeneration, for the last time, is not a process of will -- it is a biological fact.

Eh... It didn't really do much for me. Why can't the apocalypse ever be fun? Instead it's always depressing... (4/10)

Well, that's blown my review out of the water, hasn't it.:rolleyes:

You can stop yourself from sneezing, but not regenerating. That's the law of life.

Well cut me some slack I haven't seen more than two 4 classic stories.

I just assumed it happens when near death as thats what it has been throughout the new series.

I assumed it was fictional...but according to some people's reactions, perhaps it is RL. Wow!

Slack cut. Go watch more old series.

Yeah, because RTD has screwed up the concept of regeneration, like I said.

I definitely will.

Same rule applies that I mentioned before then. If regeneration is automatic it would simply keep occuring until all lives have been used up.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the "Regeneration is biological and only happens when you're in physical safety".

And I suppose Romana had to shoot herself to regenerate all those times rather than willing herself to do so...
Ditto Azmael, who did not will himself to regenerate (as stated in the episode) at all? It was biological. :P

Just because you could will yourself to do it like Romana did in a perfectly safe environment, doesn't mean it won't happen on death to.

And no, I'm sorry, but Rassilon is the little genius bugger that setup regeneration. He wouldn't make it keep regenerating someone under water, it has to have some kind of a saftey catch. :P

When the previous Doctors regenerated, they were about to die, as in death was sure. Pertwee didn't even get to finish what he was saying before he died, then regenerated.

Either way, RTD has messed up the concept imo and it's still somewhat murky in areas. I think the excuse he used in Turn Left showed a lack of creativity and was forced in.

It's never been stated that Rassilon did anything relating to regeneration...where are you getting this from? He invented the Gallifreyan transduction barrier, TARDIS technology, Time Travel (with Omega) and validium...but it never says he had anything to do with regeneration. :P

Of course the Doctor would only regenerate when near death, otherwise it would be a pointless waste of a life that he apparently only has a limited amount of (you said it yourself, about to die :P). That's why there's so much debate over Romana's 'regeneration'.

The fact that the series often states that regeneration is not guarenteed and can often fail. The Doctor alone has had 3 near-failed regenerations, one that nearly didn't occur and all and one that was extremely delayed. Out of 9 regenerations, that's 5 that have had some sort of issue and of the remaining 4 one was forced on him and one remains unseen, so we don't know the exact circumstances. That seems a pretty haphazard "biological process" to be honest. The fact that they so often go wrong (even on Gallifrey where the Sisters of Karn have to supply Elixir to help some Time Lords complete successful regenerations) means that there really doesn't appear to be any failsafes in the process at all. Coupled with the fact that Gallifreyans who are not Time Lords are often seen to die and not regenerate seems to suggest the process is not a biological one but one that is either implanted or learnt at the Time Lord Academy.

The Doctor has suggested on many occasions (such as The Unquiet Dead), the Doctor has expressed a fear of dying rather than regenerating, again perhaps illustrating a non-automatic process. Also, stasers are seen to kill Time Lords outright, such as the Castellan and the Time Lord President in The Deadly Assassin. Surely if the process was automatic rather than initiated by the Time Lord himself, such a weapon would not be possible?

I really don't see how RTD "messed up" regeneration? If anything, the TV movie came closest to overwriting the process as we know it, as the Doctor regenerates after several hours rather than immediately. RTD simply goes by stated continuity...the Ninth Doctor regenerates when mortally wounded as does the Master. The Master forces back his regeneration in the same way as the Fifth delays it in Caves of Androzani and the reverse of Azmael forcing regeneration to occur in The Twin Dilemma. All RTD has done is go by established fact.
Again, I also can't think of how it "lacked creativity"? Can you honestly think of a better explaination for the Doctors' death?

It's been stated in the 8th Doctor Audio dramas, where you hear it from Rassilon himself. It's also been mentioned in other media. If you don't consider these canon, eh, then there's no point of this discussion continuing between you and I. :rolleyes:

Well, that's because we've always been lead to belive there's a big difference betwen being a Gallifreyan and a Time Lord.

One major reason for that is, yet again, Rassilon influenced stuff that they most likely inject into your DNA or something at the academy.

I'm pretty sure that's been mentioned directly in the TV series before.

To say the Doctor would be killed in such an easy, brush off worthy manner, goes against everything we know about him I'd say. The fact he could just be surprised and drowned really makes the whole thing just sub-par and sounds like an excuse to me.

No, I can't come up with a better explanation for his death off the top of my head. But I wouldn't have needed to think of one because I'd never write such a crap story. :P

He could have said it had something to do with that huon energy crap from The Runaway Bride. The Doctor could have been accidentally dosed with residual huon energy that escaped when the underground base was destroyed or something and it inhibited the regenerative process, when in the actual timeline the Doctor made it out in time and thus the energy release was harmless and it merely dispersed. After all, the Doctor did say in The Runaway Bride that the Time Lords supposedly removed huon energy from existence... inhibition of the regenerative process would be a pretty damn good reason for them to do so, considering they're not really supposed to get involved in most things.

OMFG I CAN'T LIKE THIS EPISODE COS ROSE IS IN IT

In case anyone was wondering, those weren't my thoughts, but I have a feeling they belong to the person who started this thread...

I rather enjoyed the episode (though perhaps watching on an 8" black and white TV in a tent enhanced the viewing experience), which while masquerading as a "Donna is important" episode actually proved how important the Doctor is - Donna's just another link in the chain.

Anyway. My holiday wasn't ruined by this episode, nor have I hired hitmen to go after RTD - in fact I'm glad that an episode like this went out amongst the dumbed-down drivel that's on every other channel at the moment.

You wound me, sir. Go back over the earlier posts in this thread. Kody and Megan have summed up my thoughts and reasoning very well.

Or, to put it in slightly less eloquent terms:

OMFG I CAN'T LIKE THIS EPISODE COS IT ACTUALLY SUCKED

If only Doctor Who audio dramas and books were canon.

Shame they aren't.

If only the new series was canon.

Shame it's not.

Happily, it is. Canon is dictated by the BBC, not by you :P

What is considered canon by the fans is often of more relevence, Alex.

Fortunately, with the exception of Danny's elitist sect, the majority of fans do enjoy the new series.

True, Ross, when one considers some of the Star Wars books :P

Correct. The BBC could not care less what is canon.

For the record, I enjoy the vast majority of the new series. It gets all the little things right, and so the self-contained stories are usually pretty awesome. It's just the big arc-related garbage (that usually comes from RTD) that I hate.

I still do wonder why you watch RTD's stuff at all if it makes you want to top yourself Danny. ;)

I will admit to being supportive of RTD not being what RT dubs "Who Supremo" anymore. But that's more because I think the series needs a change, not because I think he writes garbage.

And I hate elitist sects. I might start such a sect to "deal with" elitist sects......anybody want to join? :)

Because I'm an obsessed hardcore Doctor Who fan, and I owe it to myself to know what's being done to my beloved show.

I shall join such a sect, Jez.

There's a difference between being an elitist about something and having high standards. I, who would probably be considered part of Danny's "elitist sect," have seen only a select number of both old series and new series episodes (only the ones that Danny has been kind enough to show me). In fact, I was exposed to the new series before the old series, so I can't even say my dislike of some of the new series stuff is just residual bias from adoring the old series. I am not a die-hard enough fan to be angry with the new series for trying to be different and to distinguish itself from the old series. Not having enough knowledge of the series as a whole, I don't often have the luxury of tearing an episode apart for its inconsistencies. However, I can, as an intelligent viewer, distinguish between that which is conceptually interesting and thoughtful and that which is obvious, cheesy, and virtually unwatchable. I found Turn Left to be the latter. The writing was poor, the acting was melodramatic, the concept on which the episode was centered is old, tedious, and obvious, and it served to establish basically nothing except that OMFG surprise! The Doctor is important! :eek: Apparently RTD thought we needed a reminder that the Doctor is important. The title of the goddamn show couldn't give you a hint? He's the protagonist. It kinda comes with the territory.

Danny and the other members of our "elitist sect" may be really hardcore Doctor Who fans, but we are first and foremost thoughtful viewers of the show who have the ability to determine whether an episode is good or bad on its own and also whether it is good or bad in the context of the entire series. When rating the episodes, both possibilities are taken into account. From my observations, an episode is rated highly if it succeeds in being a good episode on its own in addition to being a relevant addition to the series. Turn Left was given a -2 because, in our humble opinion, it failed on both counts.

Quoted for win. :D

QFE, epic win, etc. ;)

I'd just like to say.. what is up with everyone coming here to try and insult people? Calling those of us that have valid reasons for not liking this episode an elitiest sect?

Ronnie at least explained why he liked it and debated it in a friendly, adult manner. Most of the other posters here have resorted to cheap comments and rather lame attempts at cutting us down for wanting to actually discuss/debate an episode.

We started the threads with jokes and LOLcat style pictures, but when asked why, we provided in depth writeups of what we felt was wrong with it.

If you can't accept that and still want to act like a ten year old, go right ahead I suppose.

It seems that most people don't take kindly to constructive, logical criticism of the things they like, yet don't actually have enough of an argument to respond with anything other than ad hominem attacks. In case anyone was confused, "you suck" or an equivalent to that does not count as a valid argument. Sorry to burst your bubbles. Unless you want to sound like a moron, it might be a better idea to actually post a valid opinion about the episode rather than mindless and occasionally insulting word vomit.

k thx.

Oh and thanks for the props, everyone! I'm merely defending the awesomeness of our elitist sect! ;)

Umm, thanks.

What an utterly witty and thoughtful reply! :rolleyes:

I was referring to the fact that I posted a perfectly legible rebuttal and it was referred to as "word vomit".

I thought in all of my text I had written something about commending those who actually took time to respond, but perhaps I was merely thinking of Kody's post. Like Kody, I don't really care if you have a differing opinion as long as you are able to defend it in a thoughtful, intelligent manner, as you did. Thoughtful posts which differ in opinion to other posts spark discussion. Which is good.

So yeah, your post wasn't word vomit at all. I was referring to other n00bs.

Combined with the fact I also cited you as being the only one holding a good, mature argument Ronnie. We're complimenting you, damn it! :P

Aww thanks. you've made me go all soft and fluffy like a little bunny rabbit now :cool:

You just won the entire thread.

I haven't seen the episode yet but I will later tonight.

Thanks! You have made my day! :D

(It was a slow day.)

Blah. I did enjoy the parts that weren't all... Donna and her family and such. I enjoyed a lot of Donna's lines during those scenes though.

But... yeah, this one just struck me the wrong way. I didn't think it was terrible, I just thought it was annoying for the most part. My parents didn't groan like I expected them to when Rose showed up. :P

I'm looking forward to the next one. I'm actually kind of enjoying this arc... call it a guilty pleasure.

In the trailer did it sound like a Dalek was going "KEKEKEKEKE" to anyone else?

Didn't sound like. Was.