Last of the Time Lords
 

It's been four months since Last of the Time Lords made its premiere, and I'm curious to know what people think of it after having lived with it for four months (and hopefully having watched it a few more times since then). Did you really like it? Did you hate it? Most important, has it affected your view of the new series at all -- either its previous episodes, or its future?

I'm sorry to say that not only did I dislike the episode after seeing it initially, but my opinion of it has plummeted significantly lower even than that after repeated viewings. Even more sadly, it has most definitely has affected my opinion of the entire new series, from 2005 on.

In a way, it's kind of liberating. Last of the Time Lords has stripped me of my rose-tinted view of the new series, and I now see it for what it really is. I'm now more capable of seeing the inherent flaws in almost all of RTD's writing, and I finally realize that the new series, on many levels, just isn't as good as it should be.

But for many of the same reasons, it's also quite depressing. Before Last of the Time Lords robbed me of my "innocence" if you will, I really enjoyed the new series. It wasn't exactly the same kind of enjoyment I got from the old series, but I still enjoyed Saturday evenings because I got to watch new Doctor Who. It still felt like Doctor Who. But it doesn't anymore... not quite so much. Even the older episodes in the new series. I watch everything with a much more critical eye now, and I shouldn't have to do that for a show like Doctor Who. But much of that is now ruined for me and I just kind of have to accept that and move on... it's very unfortunate.

How does everyone else feel about Last of the Time Lords now that you've all lived with it for a while?

Lets just say I don't cry myself to sleep at night...

I really don't see the big deal, all series' have their duff episodes once in a while, and to be frank, I found series 3 to be one hell of a great series, with some of the best stories, and LOTTL certainly surpassed the 2005 finale, which I found to be more flawed and inconsistent with human evolution than anything else. Face it, this new series IS in canon with past episodes, whether anyone likes it or not.

Frankly, people should be grateful that Doctor Who was bought back to our screens tremendously well and a lot of effort has gone into making it good. The original series was as riddled with inconsitencies as the new series.

Danny, can you explain to us exactly how a bad episode has turned you against the entire revived series?

Hmm. Interesting topic raised Danny, a good one at that :)

In my opinion LOTTL was hardly a fitting conclusion to the series, especially after how superb the first 2 parts of the story arc were. There was just a flimsy quick resolution which did little to impress anyone. I finished that episode with a strong sense of unachievement. I was not impressed, i had mroe emotion when the show was put off for Eurovision. I have been skeptical of RTD in the past as we all have and his handing has been sketchy. I do remember i mentioned hwo I thought he could handle two parters, but obviously not anymore. He should not write plots

But, like Ronn I can't see how one episode could really turn someone against Doctor Who. Yes it was hardly what we expected, but there will be poor episodes and it will get harder to raise the bar each year. All we can do is be optimistic. next year seems to be shaping up to look great and with the rumors RTD will be handing over production of the series for 2010 can only be a lighthouse off the shores. I still look back most of the other episodes and i still enjoy it. It's a classic show and we should count our blessings it's is back. Even if we have a naff guy producing it. The fact that one single bad episode is being bashed and doubts cast over the show when the whole series was quite well done and it's been a very high standard of TV is quite melodramatic indeed.

So thats my two cents, yes it was bad. yes it will raise eyebrows and it will make us wonder about the strength of the show. but it was one episode and we need to just look forward, not back. or we will just be running in circles. Whats the point in moping? If you did not like it, stop watching it. I would do the same for a bad episode of Star Trek

And as a final point, we all hammered Love and Monsters far worse then LOTTL, and things got much better there,

I am right in thinking a lot of these die hard fans are looking for flaws. Danny, why have you repeatedly watched it? To make yourself hate it even more? If I see a bad episode of Frost which I have on DVD, of which there are 4 or 5 really sucky ones, I leave them on the shelf and watch them once every 6-12 months. I don't watch them over and over an get depressed and decide the show is no longer worth watching. When Doctor Who was cancelled it was in a real rut, and the movie fell through as well. And the current BBC Wales crew have defied the odds and propelled it to the top. You should all be grateful for that.

True, it wasn't the best episode in the world, but Series 3 in the long run was the best yet in my opinion.
I find it kinda melodramtic that someone can say they have SERIOUS doubts about the future of the showm just because of one bad episode, there were probably worse episodes/serials than that in the classic series (especially later on, where the writing just became inexperienced twaddle).
I honestly don't see how the show is going down hill after one bad episode, there were plot holes, yes. But as "Teh Ronn" said, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it, the only serious problem I had was the regeneration (I just don't think Time Lords have the choice in Regenerating or not).
Over all, the series is getting better, nothing's perfect, and if you disliked it THAT much, then write in and tell them yourself, instead of just moping on about it.

Wow, with poll choices like those, you should go into political speech writing Danny...

To be frank, I haven't really thought about it. It's not up there in my mind's list of priorities (unlike buying an AMD quad). Besides, Spooks is back! Spooks > Doctor Who.

I haven't watched the episode since it was originally broadcast. As an additional note, I haven't watched any of the new series' episodes since they were originally broadcast. Doesn't mean I hate any of them, just means I don't feel the need to watch them more than once, whether I originally liked an episode or not. Watching it more than once will kill the whole thing for me (YAWN, I know what's going to happen now; is Top Gear on yet?).

I know a bad episode when I see it - this wasn't one for me. I enjoyed the episode. I watch Doctor Who for entertainment, not for educational purposes. Therefore, I don't care if there are discrepancies in the storyline. You get that in every TV drama no-matter what the genre. It's a family drama, not Newsnight.

Like Ronnie, I don't understand why you kept on watching it if you hated it so much the first time Danny. You don't use Windows because you hate it so much - why should watching an episode of a TV show be any different?

If I start reading a book and I'm not enjoying it by (at-most) halfway through, I stop reading it, lest I waste time on something that doesn't entertain.

Seconded.

Seconded.

It's a TV show. They have their ups and downs. It hasn't really affected my veiw of the series at all. :P With me it's like "Oh... darn, bad episode. Oh well."
Besides, sans that episode series 3 was the best so far.

Sounds to me like you took it a bit too hard, though I'm not saying that's your fault.

Agreed. We all have our opinions here. but playing the optimism card here night be a nice start :)

I hope the Optimism card doesn't look and taste like a grham cracker.
Otherwise I think I may have ruined that chance.

After all this time, I think it was alright on a first viewing but after more it seems quite poor.

Jack and the Doctor weren't in it enough, and also it connected poorly to the previous two episodes.

Having only seen it once since my first viewing, I cant really comment anymore because I dont remember what else I hate about it.

I agree that series 3 was, until the finale, quite good. In fact, the best series so far. However LOTTL showed how RTD treats the show... he plays games with it, and I absolutely hate the way he writes for the show on many levels. So I am well within my right to be concerned for the future of the show, as long as he is still in charge. As I said in my original post, looking back now, I see the same style of writing in nearly all his previous episodes as well... this is not the first time he's let me down. It's just the first time I've felt it so deeply, which in turn has amplified all the other times.

I disagree. I would much rather have a handful of people watching a truly great show than half the world watching an utterly dire show.

As I said above, it's not just a bad episode, it's a horrible episode. And it makes it clear to me what RTD is doing with the show, and has been from the start. I simply despise the version of Doctor Who that RTD is making.

I hammered Last of the Time Lords MUCH more than I hammered Love and Monsters. Because it's MUCH more deserving of a good hammering. L&M can be pushed aside and casually ignored. LOTTL cannot.

I watch it again when I show it to others. I never do it by choice. And each time has been more painful than the time before, to the point where I literally apologize profusely to the poor person I subjected it to once it ends.

I hate that mentality. "Doctor Who is successful. Count your blessings." Yeah, it's successful, big whoop. It's successful because it appeals to the stupid, drooling, mindless masses, which is not the kind of Doctor Who I want.

I made my case above. It's not just this episode -- it sheds light on flaws that have been there the whole time.

Yes, because they will totally redo it because I complained.

You're damn right I took it hard. It's hard to watch my favorite show turn into a pile of garbage.

OK. Seeing as everyone else has not complained so far, what other flaws do you mean then Danny? Without trying to sound too harsh about it. My only problem has been RTD but apart from the last episode which was dissappointing, I have not been complaining, I don't think you complained much apart form us all moaning about RTD, and if i recall you thought series 1 was excellent, and only hammered 2 or 3 episodes from series 2. So what flaws have supposedly become apparrent? Besides RTD's poor management and writing skills.

I can see where you are coming from though Danny. No-one likes thier favorite show to be poorly managed. And a few times these last couple of years we have seen those flaws. but s**t happens. There will always be things we feel can be done better or could be easily retooled to fit in much nicer. I recall some people did a fan edit of Star Trek: Generations which ommitted Kirk and it still worked, in fact it worked better. I can understand your concerned, and you quitw rightly said you have the right to complain. But it is 1 Episode, if it was most or a whole series then i think we would all feel cheated. I think what needs to be done is to step back and take a look at the Christmas special when it comes out, and then we can get an idea of forthcoming episodes and then we can see how the series may be taken forward.

And remember, RTD is supposedly off after 2009. So as Ronn quite rightly said, count your blessings and be happy and look forward.

Pretty much anything RTD writes. His dialogue, both technically and stylistically, his sense of wit, style of humor, basic plot ideas being too grand, contemporary references, filling the show with the families of companions, making all the companions fall in love with the Doctor (and the ultimate sin, making the Doctor fall in love back, with Rose), making everything somehow linked to contemporary Earth, few alien planets... The list goes on. The entire show is a disaster.

See above:

Well. Remember the Doctor is the last of his kind. unlike before where he had his whole race for company. He is now on his own. if i was in his shoes and some girl wanted to travel with me, then I would feel some attraction too. It's perfectly logical when your spend a lot much time on your own to crave a bit of closeness. Especially given the nature of Time Lords in paticular.

The concept of few alien planets HAS been done before mind, remember when the Doctor got exiled to earth during his 3rd incranation I believe. Most plots were set on Earth then as he was working for UNIT. So it's hardly a new concept, and it proved quite popular before and it's proving popular now. I would like to see more alien planets but next year we should be seeing a couple anyway.

Nothing wrong with grand plot ideas. It's good to watch. If you keep it too basic then it becomes too repetitive and we already see the outcome beforehand. I like to be suprised and waiting for the solution.

Again, whats wrong with giving companions a bit more backstory, making them a bit more three dimensional and being fleshed out. it's good to explore all sides of everyone at times.

Then again. I hope Donna does nto fall in love with the Doctor. I liked the chemistry between The Doctor and Rose but I don't think it needs to happen again, lets hope Donna will still be a bit intimidated by him next year.

Excuse me? Someone disagrees with his royal Danny-ness so they are representative of who would enjoy what you describe, basically, as shit?

That is a tad harsh Danny. How does it appeal to the stupid drooling mindless masses you speak of? :(

It has to appeal to the majority, otherwise it'll be axed. Simple as.

Agreed, to some extent. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

Not because they disagree with me per se, but because of their tastes just the same.

In a sentence: By making it into a soap opera with overly grand and yet somehow insultingly simplistic plots.

Oh get out of town. There is an even balance of simple, fun stories, and the brilliant stories. Even you can see that. Why do you never write paragraph after paragrah about the good RTD stories like Smith and Jones, Gridlock and Utopia?

Personally, apart form about two or three episodes. i have found the whole series fun, enjoyable and really entertaining, not many shows really connect for me. I love my Sci Fi and I think Doctor Who is good Sci Fi.

Far be it for me to order anyone about. I still think we need to wait untill series 4 to see if Danny is right or not. He does have a point but we all need more evidence. Series 4 will be a new take on tihngs since we would not have seen it obviously.

Might i point out though Danny that Doctor Who Started off as a childrens educational Telly program set on Earth almost all of the time. It was only when the Daleks first appeared that they had to change it to appeal to the majority, its what made it a classic TV show. They are merely doing the same now. You might not like it, and your opinion of the show may have dropped a lot, but remember you have made this site into a wonderful haven for all Doctor Who fans who choose to join, so you might not like it, but a lot of people here love it and we will be disscussing it a lot.

You get out of town. This is my town, after all. "Simple" and "fun" do not necessarily go together. And I've said my piece on Smith and Jones. Gridlock was not so impressive, and Utopia was adequate.

Your point? I loved the Hartnell era. I hate the majority of RTD's era.

That's exactly what I am doing -- discussing what I feel to be a colossal screwup on the part of RTD.

That's funny, because I seem to remember you praising both of them to the stars when they aired. Gridlock was fast, and great fun, especially with the *Macra coming back, and opened up the story arc wonderfully. Utopia was excellent, especially with that brilliant performance by Jacobi. Just because you hated Last of the Time Lords doesn't mean you have to suddenly go around saying "oh yes, that was ok I suppose. It'll do." You loved them before the finale and this episode shouldn't change your opinion on the others.

* Don't start :P

I was also laughing out loud after reading you say "Having lived with it for 4 months." As though it's been breathing down my neck, watching my DVDs, eating my food, sleeping in my bed and taking over my house to the extent I wanted to throw it out.

And do you really apologise to the people who watch it? Honestly, you describe it as a form of torture! I think the casual viewer isn't going to be left scarred for life having seen it. They're not going to consider cutting all ties with you because of it. And if it really is like being streched on a rack with electrodes on your nipples while a fat gay man in a leather mask whips you with a wet towel with pins on it, why BOTHER sharing it in the first place?

One of the poll options should've been "boaby".

Yes, and "I saw it and I'm not in a rut because of it"

"I disliked LOTTL, but I'm not worried about future DW" Fits the bill for that. :P That's what I voted.

Nope. I enjoyed them after I first saw them (as with most of the new series), but upon repeat viewings the flaws really start to shine through and become terribly grating. Utopia is still a fairly good episode. Jacobi is the highlight. Upon reflection, I would give Gridlock about a 6.5 out of 10, and Utopia an 8 out of 10.

It nags at my soul enough to feel like that's exactly what it's done.

Yes, I have apologized to multiple people after it was over.

Because they have to be caught up on the new series. We can't just skip it and pretend like it never happened. Also, then I get to discuss with them exactly how bad it was.

So don't watch it then. If it is just going to get worse and worse for you then watch it once and put it to rest then. Sadly this will mean in future reviews your opinions of an episode will now be taken with a pinch of salt. Because we are all going to expect that opinion to be replaced within 4 months.

True point.

I am obligated to watch it because it's Doctor Who. I also need to know how bad RTD is hurting the show.

I intend to, when possible.

I have no problem giving high marks to a good episode, and we've had our share of exceptional episodes. We've just had our share of dismal failures too.

EDIT: Just to prove I'm not biased against the entire new series, here are some hastily recalculated ratings for the whole show. I'm doing them out of 5 so I don't have to put too much thought into them; I intend to redo them all and review them all properly at some point in the future.

Series 1
Rose - 3/5
The End of the World - 3/5
The Unquiet Dead - 4/5
Aliens of London - 2/5
World War Three - 2/5
Dalek - 4/5
The Long Game - 3/5
Father's Day - 4.5/5
The Empty Child - 5/5
The Doctor Dances - 5/5
Boom Town - 3.5/5
Bad Wolf - 3/5
The Parting of the Ways - 3.5/5

Series 2
The Christmas Invasion - 3.5/5
New Earth - 3/5
Tooth and Claw - 4/5
School Reunion - 4.5/5
The Girl in the Fireplace - 5/5
Rise of the Cybermen - 3/5
The Age of Steel - 3.5/5
The Idiot's Lantern - 3/5
The Impossible Planet - 4/5
The Satan Pit - 4/5
Love & Monsters - 1/5
Fear Her - 2.5/5
Army of Ghosts - 3/5
Doomsday - 3/5

Series 3
The Runaway Bride - 2/5
Smith and Jones - 4.5/5
The Shakespeare Code - 4/5
Gridlock - 3/5
Daleks in Manhattan - 2.5/5
Evolution of the Daleks - 2/5
The Lazarus Experiment - 4/5
42 - 4/5
Human Nature - 5/5
The Family of Blood - 5/5
Blink - 5/5
Utopia - 4/5
The Sound of Drums - 3.5/5
Last of the Time Lords - 1/5

Some of those may not be representative of my actual thoughts about the episode but I didn't want to spend too long putting it together. As you see, there are plenty of 4/5 and 5/5 ratings, including some that are even from RTD.

I see what you mean. But I should also have said it will also be a tad harder to take you seriously in review topics now.

But regardless. I can agree with a great deal of those reviews, some could use a tweaking mind ;) :)

Should've given LotTL a -5/5 instead. :P

I didn't want to give it a 0, but I did want to keep it on the scale. :P

That said, Murray Gold gives the episode one point for his ridiculously awesome electronic Master score bits.

Well, it shouldn't be. I call these episodes as I honestly see them.

Don't change them then once you have called them ;) Not saying you do all the time but if more episodes go the way of LOTTL then i may have to sedate you :P

I don't intend to. You have to understand that you always feel better about an episode immediately after you see it for the first time, which is when I vote. Believe me, from now on, you'll get an unbiased perspective right from the start.

In one word: fantastic :)

I wonder, if one day LotTL was rewritten or salvaged to become a really good episode instead of that....... thing, what would need to be changed?
More than likely the whole final 3 episodes would need to change a little.

If I were one of the rewriters I would first change what the Toklafane were. I would simply make them robots, but the Master would have still comitted the ultimate crime for creating them because of what kind of hardware they're made of...
And also have had the Utopia Ship actually reverse engineered from a Void Ship.
Seems like at the end of the universe the only place for salvation would be another universe. :P

I agree with your Season 3 ratings, Danny. Most of the 5/5s are brilliant episodes, shining examples of how DW should be.

Series 3 had such high quality, it is obvious. Shame the last episode ruined it.

Incidently. What was the music played during the last 7 or 8 minutes of Utopia? When Yana opens the watch and lets The Master loose. I really want to download that peice.

Is this what you're looking for?

Don't you worry. I am in the process of rewriting the entire Utopia / The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords adventure. It will be awesome.

Thank you, Ross!