Danny and RV's argument forum
 

How about, every time Danny and RV have one of their arguments, we can just move it into this thread? Sounds like a plan!

I've tried this kind of thing on this forum that I moderate. It didn't work. :P

But I bet RV has never used a Mac. The only arguments he's brought up are upgradability and price(neither of which I particularly care about. I never swap out parts anyway. Another good one would've been ability to build one yourself, which actually sounds quite fun.) The rest is "Apple is brainwashing you. You are being assmilated." Oh yeah, I can just see Cybermen with the Apple logo on them. Gimme a break.
And Danny's a network engineer and studying for a computer science major. RV has no such claim to back up his knowledge.
Gee, I wonder who knows more about what they're talking about! :P

See? If anything it's going to be a place to DISCUSS their arguments...
Like... a reveiw or something.

Hasn't been a good ol' rivaly on here forum since the days of Max and Star Wars ;)

Sure there has. There was a full scale war, Daryl and Co VS the non-idiots.

I couldn't be bothered to search for an "I love you" animated gif, but you are awesome. Thank you. :P

well, RV says he did his work experience at a Mac repair shop

I can see the irony in that statement. ;)

Actually, I've used Macs extensively during school for both multimedia and normal work.

And the only argument Danny has is 'OMG BLUESCREENS EVERWHAR WINDOES SUX' and ignores entirely that Windows isn't the only OS available for PCs.

The ability to upgrade you computer is important. I'm not going to have to buy a new power supply, case, screen or motherboard for a few years still. All I have to change is the CPU (which I've had for 3 years and is only now starting to get a bit old), GPU (probably will replace it when the 9000 series cards come out) and add some RAM every now and then.

I guess it really depends on how much you value 2 things; Money and Freedom. If you have an unlimited fountain of money (like, say, your parents, eh Superkid?) then the fact of Mac's exorbitant pricing is a non-issue. Freedom is another issue, if you don't mind being shoehorned into buying a new screen, case, motherboard and power supply just to upgrade your hardware to something slightly less obsolete, then I guess that's a nonissue, too. But, some of us don't have parents who just go out and buy us expensive shit on a whim and some of us value what freedom we still have, and so these issue are very real.

You don't see me mentioning how great PC's are in every thread, do you? Danny just can't help either making remarks about Windows or slobbering all over threads with his Apple bullshit. If that isn't brainwashing, I don't know what is.

Ooh, network engineer. That's a funny way to put "works for his dad".

1) That is not my only argument.
2) I do not ignore that fact -- actually, I embrace it as one of the last best hopes for the PC.

Not as much as it's cracked up to be. Macs from as long ago as six or seven years will run Leopard just fine, and every report I've heard says that the OS is faster and more responsive on their systems than Tiger was. Try saying that about Vista.

In response to the price issue, RV, you might be interested to know that I spent an hour or so the other day pricing how much it would cost if I were to buy separate components of equal value to the ones that Apple ships in their Macs. The components I selected (which, by the way, were the lowest-priced components that I could find while still being of equal value) ended up totaling within $100 of the price of an equally equipped Mac. Maybe they used to be overpriced, but I would say they're a lot closer to fair pricing now.

In response to the freedom issue, again, as I said above, there's less of a need to upgrade your hardware in the first place. Mac OS X is much better about backwards compatibility, even two or three OS versions ago. My iMac now runs Panther (10.3) and there has not been a single program I've wanted to run on it that has not been able to run just fine (and performed well too). A nine-year-old computer is still usable here... something almost no PC user can say. Also, you include screen in there, but only three of the currently available five Mac models ship with screens built-in.

Haha, this one's easy -- that's because they suck! :P

Because it sucks.

"Slobbering" and "bullshit" indeed...

Oh, I think I'm finally starting to get it. RV defines "bullshit" as "making a superior product and then demonstrating its benefits to uneducated people who are unable to cope with their own shortcomings as a result." Man, RV, that would have been a lot easier if you'd made that clear earlier.

Actually I am a certified network engineer, with basic certification and training in Microsoft, Novell, Citrix, and Cisco, as well as a pretty extensive background in Unix and Linux. I work full time for a legitimate corporation. You can downplay it all you like, but the fact of the matter is I am a network engineer, and likely have more computer experience under my belt from the last seven years than you've accumulated in your entire life.

Well I can't help it if my parents insist on paying. :P I've offered to chip in.

I have to dissagree with the "PC's suck" remark. I think it all depends on the manufacturer. There are very well built PCs. I'm using one. :P (Well, except for the motherboard that seems to have integrated its own ethernet port. Thankfully it had a slot where you could put a new one in... darn lightning strike)
But as long as my parents are willing to pay I'm springing for Mac. When I'm on my own and my mac craps out, then if I'm on a budget I'll get a PC.

Relax, that was just a joke intended to antagonize RV. :P

Er... that's the norm these days. Has been for years. If you find a motherboard without an ethernet port on it chances are the motherboard you're looking at is more than five years old or exceptionally poorly designed. And of course it had slots -- almost all computers have PCI slots. It's a very basic expansion card slot that supports just about anything. :P

Truthfully, I very much doubt you will be able to go back to Windows after using Mac OS X for a period of years. I'm already completely attached and I've only been at it for months. I would go to just about any length to avoid returning to the world of PCs.

Also, in reference to your Mac "crapping out," well, let's just say I'm still waiting for my 1998 iMac to crap out on me. I might be waiting a long time.

I'm not going to try and say that about Vista, because: 1. I don't want to use Vista. 2. I don't need to use Vista and 3. Vista really does suck and makes me want to kill small children.

However, I will say it about Linux. Because, frankly, most Linux builds run better in every new edition and are constantly being refined by a huge number of people. Similarly, they scale very well to different hardware.

There you go again, ignoring Linux.

Out of curiosity, did you include the monitor and power supply in that price? If you did, subtract them. You could probably subtract the motherboard, too.

Don't forget that in the case of RAM or GPUs, in my PC I can just add more to the extent with which my PCI slots/Memory slots can fill. I don't have to buy brand new ones to upgrade, just add it on to my previously existing hardware. That means I can add another 7600GT, and through SLI I've just doubled my graphics output power for a fraction of the price a new card costs. So yeah, you can subtract at least 1.5gb of RAM and half the price of the GPU.

I'll give you the fact that the initial costs may be potentially similar, but over time the ability to upgrade your computer is a very useful and money-saving one.

No less of a reason than there is to upgrade a PC. If something needs more computing power, there's very little you can do to make it run optimally on a slower than recommended machine. This goes particularly for games, which is why I don't think Macs will ever become a real gaming platform.

Try the Crysis demo ;).

I can't think of any reason why I'd want to use a 9-year-old computer, though, except as a server, which means all it's going to do is sit there pushing data.

Except for the whole run's every program anyone could ever want and plays games parts.

:P

Actually, for future reference, I define bullshit as 'parroting everything a corporation, religious or political organization's marketing/PR department says'. Nice guess though, you can have a star.

Considering I've been using computers since I was 5 years old, I think the margin between us isn't going to be as wide as you'd like to think it should be.

I like it when people get personal during internet arguments, though. It demonstrates they're either; a. running out of ammo or b. outright losing. It's a pity, really. The first half of your post was almost civil.

Most of my arguments are designed to specifically attack Windows-based PCs. I will give you that Linux is an excellent performer in this regard and I definitely support it.

As a matter of fact I forgot to factor in the monitor and power supply.

Why would I want to subtract anything from the price? I calculated the price for an equal set of equipment from the start -- if I factor things out on the PC side, it will no longer be an equal comparison.

Also, I wish to again reiterate that the Mac Pro is literally just like a regular computer workstation. You can add in your own RAM and update the graphics card. You may even be able to swap out the CPU.

I would say that this is true for the most part. However times are beginning to change for Apple, and as more people consider moving to Macs, Apple will start to consider the desires of gamers just as much as other users. I'm comfortable with my choice even as it is right now, and I know that things will only get better for gaming Mac users given time.

Sorry, no Intel processor means no Intel games. I'm sure it would run great if I had an Intel processor in there though. :P

Well, my dad paid something like $1200 for it when it first came out. It still works, it'll still do many basic tasks, so why throw it away? If it still has any use at all it doesn't make sense to get rid of it.

*sigh*

I feel like a broken record here. I don't want to repeat myself, but you ignore me so much that you leave me with little choice.

First of all, PCs do not run every program anyone could ever want. I would be lost without being able to make music in Logic, and I have come to rely on Final Cut for editing videos as well. The iLife suite is largely beneficial to what I do (and no similar alternative exists for PC), as well as dozens of other little pieces of Mac software which I simply cannot replace on Windows.

And second of all, for science's sake, SHUT UP ABOUT GAMES ALREADY.

MACS. PLAY. GAMES.

SHUT UP! The fact that you keep playing that card is not only tedious, it's worthless.

Thank you for the star, but I do not relay the words of any marketing or PR department. I relay my own experiences. I will be sure to put this star up on my wall just the same, though.

Funny, I was just about to say the same thing about you. You attacked my position and experience, so I responded with a similar critique of yours. And for the record, I have been using computers since age 2 in 1990. I only counted the years I have been actively working for my dad, just to be nice and give you a fair head start. :P

Also, my dad credits me with being able to hack into and reconfigure a Novell server on multiple occasions at age 2. I don't honestly remember this myself, but I have no reason to believe he is lying.

Way I see it, if you can open the case you can upgrade it. Opening the iMac case is possible, I've seen it. :P
It may be riskier but still.

Integrating it doesn't seem too smart to me. O_o Say if a lightning strike passed through your ethernet cord and into the port like it did to mine. Way I see it I was lucky to get off with just the ethernet part messed up and some other quirks. If I hadn't been lucky it might've fried the whole thing.





Anyway I would be careful not to get too personal but you're both mature enough to handle it. Me, nothing can phase me right now, something wonderful happened to me earlier. :)

Indeed. All Macs can be upgraded in the ways most users care about, and many Macs can be upgraded in virtually every way.

Integrating it is definitely smart. First of all, you should be running surge protection if you're not already. Second of all, integrating everything makes it possible to run a computer with very few components.

Grab a case, stick in a motherboard, give it a CPU and some memory, attach a hard drive and away you go. No need to worry about separate interfaces for video, audio, networking, etc. Makes a lot more sense for most computers.

Indeed. :P

I know the feeling.

Or at least I have in the past.

You don't need to buy a premium PC to get those features, though. You just need a case an a motherboard and you're on the path to 5 years of win.

Gamers would never buy a prebuilt computer. Except the dumb ones who buy Dell computers. ****ing Dell.

I thought there were Intel processors in Macs now?

Am I taking a leap by finding irony in the fact theres a program called 'logic' on a Mac...?

FL and Vegas suit me fine kthx.

1. EA games don't count.

2. Dual booting doesn't count (otherwise Linux would technically play games, too).

3. Boot camp doesn't count (See 2).

4. Solitaire or similar games don't count.

5. Photoshop isn't a game.

Also, on the internet fight scale, by telling me to shut up and using extensive capital letters you're approximately 3 steps away from comparing PCs to Nazi Germany.

Just a heads up. :P

I rely on my own experiences too, but apparently mine are wrong.

By arguing about who started computers earlier, this has become the ultimate in nerd fights. If anyone outside this forum finds this we're ****ed socially. And I mean ****ed as in screwed. And I mean screwed as in we'll get killed and wont respawn.

Yeah well I was arrested by the FBI for hacking their database when I was four months old and they only let me out when I'd finished my quota of quantum level float calculations so we could beat the aliens by using a computer virus and shutting down their shields.

I don't. I'm so bitter and twisted the only joy I get is when I piss someone off on the internet. Ref. this topic. :cool:

Well I don't give a shit about Windows. I'm supporting PCs, not Windows. I've said time and time again that as soon as Wine gets good, I'm gtfoing. The only reason I use it is because everyone makes programs for it. I didn't even pay for it.

The only thing worse than running a proprietary OS, though, is when your entire computer is proprietary. That sucks. That is why I'm not a supporter of Apple and most likely never will be.

True.

I'm a gamer and I bought a MacBook Pro. :P

There are. But my iMac is from 1998. The Intel transition wasn't until 2005. :P

Yes, you are.

And they suited me once too. I have since moved up in the world, however.

Fine. They still run games.

Fine. They still run games.

Boot Camp = dual booting. See response to 2.

Of course not.

Also no.

And yet they still run games. Hmmmmmmm...

Stop repeating yourself. Bring something both new and sensible to the table and I won't get so annoyed at you.

Yours are not wrong. They are simply not shared by me, or many that I know. You, on the other hand, have no comparable experiences on the Mac side to share with us. (Note the word "comparable.")

You are the one who started getting personal by attacking my experience. And then you also started bringing "who started earlier" into it. Don't lay this at my door. I am simply responding to comments that you made in both cases.

See? Now what does that contribute to the conversation? Absolutely nothing. I was not lying or being sarcastic at all when I said what I said. The fact that you were only able to respond with sarcasm says a lot, because up to now, you were doing pretty well in your responses.

That is news to exactly no one. :P

Excellent. Glad we're on the same page.

Well, that's your choice. I weigh the benefits though, and Apple comes out on top every time. :P

Man, you guys make me feel stupid. :P


Actually, I can take the blame for that. I'm the one who started the "who-is-more-experienced" game.


Now that's the big money saver right there. That and it sounds quite fun. I'd love to try it, but unfortunately, with my level of skill I would make a high-tech toaster at best, if not a completely useless blob of parts. :P And if by some miracle I got it mostly right, something would be hooked in the wrong way and it'd start screeching in pain and cursing its birth.
Let's face it, I don't know how the damn thing works, I just use em. That's also why I'd suck with Linux.


Did you not see those screenshots in that other topic? :P
Or is Quake EA?




I WISH I were as nerdy as you guys. I only got my own computer when I was 10.


... holy crap. o_o




Ah, but the thing about it being proprietary is, until your warrenty is void, you get to be a pain in the ass if it breaks. :D

Yeah, but at least you brought up something legitimate. :P

True.

Quake is not EA. Don't mind RV, he's just bitter. :P

RV is obviously not being serious. I am telling the truth, however. My dad literally sat there and saw me break into his Novell server (and Novell servers are not the easiest things to use, mind you) until he had to rush over there and physically pull me away from the computer so I didn't break his network. Age 2.

Hahaha. Touche, sir! :D