Last of the Time Lords - Page 2

Danny Stewart · #21 October 31, 2007, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

Oh get out of town. There is an even balance of simple, fun stories, and the brilliant stories. Even you can see that. Why do you never write paragraph after paragrah about the good RTD stories like Smith and Jones, Gridlock and Utopia?

You get out of town. This is my town, after all. "Simple" and "fun" do not necessarily go together. And I've said my piece on Smith and Jones. Gridlock was not so impressive, and Utopia was adequate.

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

Might i point out though Danny that Doctor Who Started off as a childrens educational Telly program set on Earth almost all of the time. It was only when the Daleks first appeared that they had to change it to appeal to the majority, its what made it a classic TV show.

Your point? I loved the Hartnell era. I hate the majority of RTD's era.

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

They are merely doing the same now. You might not like it, and your opinion of the show may have dropped a lot, but remember you have made this site into a wonderful haven for all Doctor Who fans who choose to join, so you might not like it, but a lot of people here love it and we will be disscussing it a lot.

That's exactly what I am doing -- discussing what I feel to be a colossal screwup on the part of RTD.

Ronnie Rowlands · #22 October 31, 2007, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Gridlock was not so impressive, and Utopia was adequate.

That's funny, because I seem to remember you praising both of them to the stars when they aired. Gridlock was fast, and great fun, especially with the *Macra coming back, and opened up the story arc wonderfully. Utopia was excellent, especially with that brilliant performance by Jacobi. Just because you hated Last of the Time Lords doesn't mean you have to suddenly go around saying "oh yes, that was ok I suppose. It'll do." You loved them before the finale and this episode shouldn't change your opinion on the others.

* Don't start

I was also laughing out loud after reading you say "Having lived with it for 4 months." As though it's been breathing down my neck, watching my DVDs, eating my food, sleeping in my bed and taking over my house to the extent I wanted to throw it out.

And do you really apologise to the people who watch it? Honestly, you describe it as a form of torture! I think the casual viewer isn't going to be left scarred for life having seen it. They're not going to consider cutting all ties with you because of it. And if it really is like being streched on a rack with electrodes on your nipples while a fat gay man in a leather mask whips you with a wet towel with pins on it, why BOTHER sharing it in the first place?

Ross Hendrie · #23 October 31, 2007, 5:48 PM

One of the poll options should've been "boaby".

Ronnie Rowlands · #24 October 31, 2007, 5:51 PM

Yes, and "I saw it and I'm not in a rut because of it"

Superkid11 · #25 October 31, 2007, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

Yes, and "I saw it and I'm not in a rut because of it"

"I disliked LOTTL, but I'm not worried about future DW" Fits the bill for that.

That's what I voted.

Danny Stewart · #26 November 1, 2007, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

That's funny, because I seem to remember you praising both of them to the stars when they aired. Gridlock was fast, and great fun, especially with the *Macra coming back, and opened up the story arc wonderfully. Utopia was excellent, especially with that brilliant performance by Jacobi. Just because you hated Last of the Time Lords doesn't mean you have to suddenly go around saying "oh yes, that was ok I suppose. It'll do." You loved them before the finale and this episode shouldn't change your opinion on the others.

Nope. I enjoyed them after I first saw them (as with most of the new series), but upon repeat viewings the flaws really start to shine through and become terribly grating. Utopia is still a fairly good episode. Jacobi is the highlight. Upon reflection, I would give Gridlock about a 6.5 out of 10, and Utopia an 8 out of 10.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

I was also laughing out loud after reading you say "Having lived with it for 4 months." As though it's been breathing down my neck, watching my DVDs, eating my food, sleeping in my bed and taking over my house to the extent I wanted to throw it out.

It nags at my soul enough to feel like that's exactly what it's done.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

And do you really apologise to the people who watch it?

Yes, I have apologized to multiple people after it was over.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

Honestly, you describe it as a form of torture! I think the casual viewer isn't going to be left scarred for life having seen it. They're not going to consider cutting all ties with you because of it. And if it really is like being streched on a rack with electrodes on your nipples while a fat gay man in a leather mask whips you with a wet towel with pins on it, why BOTHER sharing it in the first place?

Because they have to be caught up on the new series. We can't just skip it and pretend like it never happened. Also, then I get to discuss with them exactly how bad it was.

Chris Britton · #27 November 1, 2007, 1:42 PM

So don't watch it then. If it is just going to get worse and worse for you then watch it once and put it to rest then. Sadly this will mean in future reviews your opinions of an episode will now be taken with a pinch of salt. Because we are all going to expect that opinion to be replaced within 4 months.

Jez · #28 November 1, 2007, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

Sadly this will mean in future reviews your opinions of an episode will now be taken with a pinch of salt. Because we are all going to expect that opinion to be replaced within 4 months.

True point.

Danny Stewart · #29 November 1, 2007, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

So don't watch it then.

I am obligated to watch it because it's Doctor Who. I also need to know how bad RTD is hurting the show.

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

If it is just going to get worse and worse for you then watch it once and put it to rest then.

I intend to, when possible.

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

Sadly this will mean in future reviews your opinions of an episode will now be taken with a pinch of salt. Because we are all going to expect that opinion to be replaced within 4 months.

I have no problem giving high marks to a good episode, and we've had our share of exceptional episodes. We've just had our share of dismal failures too.

EDIT: Just to prove I'm not biased against the entire new series, here are some hastily recalculated ratings for the whole show. I'm doing them out of 5 so I don't have to put too much thought into them; I intend to redo them all and review them all properly at some point in the future.

Series 1
Rose - 3/5
The End of the World - 3/5
The Unquiet Dead - 4/5
Aliens of London - 2/5
World War Three - 2/5
Dalek - 4/5
The Long Game - 3/5
Father's Day - 4.5/5
The Empty Child - 5/5
The Doctor Dances - 5/5
Boom Town - 3.5/5
Bad Wolf - 3/5
The Parting of the Ways - 3.5/5

Series 2
The Christmas Invasion - 3.5/5
New Earth - 3/5
Tooth and Claw - 4/5
School Reunion - 4.5/5
The Girl in the Fireplace - 5/5
Rise of the Cybermen - 3/5
The Age of Steel - 3.5/5
The Idiot's Lantern - 3/5
The Impossible Planet - 4/5
The Satan Pit - 4/5
Love & Monsters - 1/5
Fear Her - 2.5/5
Army of Ghosts - 3/5
Doomsday - 3/5

Series 3
The Runaway Bride - 2/5
Smith and Jones - 4.5/5
The Shakespeare Code - 4/5
Gridlock - 3/5
Daleks in Manhattan - 2.5/5
Evolution of the Daleks - 2/5
The Lazarus Experiment - 4/5
42 - 4/5
Human Nature - 5/5
The Family of Blood - 5/5
Blink - 5/5
Utopia - 4/5
The Sound of Drums - 3.5/5
Last of the Time Lords - 1/5

Some of those may not be representative of my actual thoughts about the episode but I didn't want to spend too long putting it together. As you see, there are plenty of 4/5 and 5/5 ratings, including some that are even from RTD.

Chris Britton · #30 November 2, 2007, 8:09 PM

I see what you mean. But I should also have said it will also be a tad harder to take you seriously in review topics now.

But regardless. I can agree with a great deal of those reviews, some could use a tweaking mind

Superkid11 · #31 November 2, 2007, 8:16 PM

Should've given LotTL a -5/5 instead.

Danny Stewart · #32 November 2, 2007, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by Superkid11

Should've given LotTL a -5/5 instead.

I didn't want to give it a 0, but I did want to keep it on the scale.

That said, Murray Gold gives the episode one point for his ridiculously awesome electronic Master score bits.

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

But I should also have said it will also be a tad harder to take you seriously in review topics now.

Well, it shouldn't be. I call these episodes as I honestly see them.

Chris Britton · #33 November 3, 2007, 7:57 AM

Don't change them then once you have called them

Not saying you do all the time but if more episodes go the way of LOTTL then i may have to sedate you

Danny Stewart · #34 November 3, 2007, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

Don't change them then once you have called them

I don't intend to. You have to understand that you always feel better about an episode immediately after you see it for the first time, which is when I vote. Believe me, from now on, you'll get an unbiased perspective right from the start.

Chris Britton · #35 November 3, 2007, 11:49 AM

In one word: fantastic

Superkid11 · #36 November 3, 2007, 1:29 PM

I wonder, if one day LotTL was rewritten or salvaged to become a really good episode instead of that....... thing, what would need to be changed?
More than likely the whole final 3 episodes would need to change a little.

If I were one of the rewriters I would first change what the Toklafane were. I would simply make them robots, but the Master would have still comitted the ultimate crime for creating them because of what kind of hardware they're made of...
And also have had the Utopia Ship actually reverse engineered from a Void Ship.
Seems like at the end of the universe the only place for salvation would be another universe.

Ross Hendrie · #37 November 3, 2007, 5:49 PM

I agree with your Season 3 ratings, Danny. Most of the 5/5s are brilliant episodes, shining examples of how DW should be.

Chris Britton · #38 November 3, 2007, 6:43 PM

Series 3 had such high quality, it is obvious. Shame the last episode ruined it.

Incidently. What was the music played during the last 7 or 8 minutes of Utopia? When Yana opens the watch and lets The Master loose. I really want to download that peice.

Dalek104 · #39 November 3, 2007, 6:53 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Britton

What was the music played during the last 7 or 8 minutes of Utopia? When Yana opens the watch and lets The Master loose. I really want to download that peice.

Is this what you're looking for?

Danny Stewart · #40 November 3, 2007, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Superkid11

I wonder, if one day LotTL was rewritten or salvaged to become a really good episode instead of that....... thing, what would need to be changed?
More than likely the whole final 3 episodes would need to change a little.

If I were one of the rewriters I would first change what the Toklafane were. I would simply make them robots, but the Master would have still comitted the ultimate crime for creating them because of what kind of hardware they're made of...
And also have had the Utopia Ship actually reverse engineered from a Void Ship.
Seems like at the end of the universe the only place for salvation would be another universe.

Don't you worry. I am in the process of rewriting the entire Utopia / The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords adventure. It will be awesome.

Originally Posted by Ross Hendrie

I agree with your Season 3 ratings, Danny. Most of the 5/5s are brilliant episodes, shining examples of how DW should be.

Thank you, Ross!