Doctor Who 4x13 - "Journey's End"

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Marinedalek

In that case you'll be disappointed with the explanations in 95% of the Doctor Who stories out there. Have fun.

Disagreed. Almost every explanation I've ever heard on Doctor Who makes more sense than the convoluted mess that sprung from RTD's mind. I honestly, honestly don't know how you can compare them. (Besides, Megan's been exposed to a fair bit of Doctor Who by now... and she has never once criticized or thought twice about an explanation given in the old series. I don't usually take issue with them either. At least writers back in the good old days knew how to make events happen that actually made sense for the most part. Even if the explanations are somewhat lacking, at least the events are not completely fucking mind-blowingly preposterous and then followed by shit explanations.)

Originally Posted by Marinedalek

As for the "Totally necessary" stuff - if you made an episode that just tied up loose ends it would be, frankly, a bit shit.

Of course there should be extra stuff in there. It just shouldn't be shit.

[Megan]

Originally Posted by Marinedalek

In that case you'll be disappointed with the explanations in 95% of the Doctor Who stories out there. Have fun.

I don't think I have particularly high standards when it comes to plot explanations. I've watched a lot of crap in my day and I will usually swallow whatever is fed to me willingly, so long as it makes some sort of sense in the context of the story. I also feel that less is more, and that the simpler the explanation, the easier it is to swallow. I felt that most of the plot points in Journey's End were so needlessly preposterous that RTD could not feasibly come up with a satisfying explanation. David Cronenberg once said of film, "Every movie has its own rules and you can really set up any game that you want, but once you do that you really have to play that game, otherwise the audience knows that something’s wrong and something’s not working." Although he was referring to violence in film (seeing as how when he said this in the '80s he was still focused on horror films), I think that this idea can be extended to rules of any kind in any visual medium. The overall tone and conventions of the show have been established since the '60s. Now, this is not to say that these unwritten rules can never be broken (change is certainly a positive thing, and in the science fiction genre there's a lot to work with). As an example, I've been told that Midnight was uncharacteristic of Doctor Who in that there was no real explanation given in the end for the episode's events. Yet even though it differed from the norm, Midnight's ending was poignant and lent an appropriately unsettling tone to the episode as a whole. The rules of Doctor Who may have been bent for a bit, but within the context of the episode the lack of explanation was perfectly apt. The same cannot be said for Journey's End, for the entire episode was absolutely, utterly ridiculous. Perhaps it could have been halfway decent if there were explanations given, in laymen's terms, as to why these specific events occurred and why they were important to the plot. The fact of the matter is, he could've written a suspenseful finale without introducing outrageous and virtually incomprehensible plot points.

As Danny said, so far in my exposure to Doctor Who I have not been dissatisfied with any of the explanations. When you're watching low-budget science-fiction, you learn not to be overly judgmental and to try and view things conceptually. Sadly, in this day and age, with high-budgets and great special effects, we are constantly shown fantastic visuals but there's rarely a point behind them. What becomes visually stimulating no longer becomes conceptually stimulating. And to be honest, I'd take cardboard props and a fascinating story ANY day over shiny CGI and a story that feels more like an afterthought.

Originally Posted by Marinedalek

As for the "Totally necessary" stuff - if you made an episode that just tied up loose ends it would be, frankly, a bit shit.

Again, like Danny said, of course there should be other stuff in the episode. I just think it would be nice if the extra stuff didn't make me want to beat my head against the wall.

Originally Posted by Superkid11

It may have actually been somewhat less tragic if she just... died. Yeah, that would start parent drama, but a heroic death would have been somewhat more appealing to me than what happened instead. Not sure why.

Agreed. I was sad to see her portrayed in her very last moments as a loud and obnoxious idiot. Sure she's normally pretty boisterous but it would've been nice if she had a more dignified departure.

[Ronnie Rowlands]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Disagreed. Almost every explanation I've ever heard on Doctor Who makes more sense than the convoluted mess that sprung from RTD's mind.

I'll reverse the polarity of the neutron flows. I'll have to agree with Pete on this one if I'm honest. There was lots of crazy science in old Who that just isn't possible. Wasn't there a Tom Baker episode where they catch a star in a net? Didn't Peter Davison float around in space without exploding? There is so, so much to be picked apart in the old series. Hell, they've even made a book about it http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-E.../dp/0786419903

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Megan

Megan's Entire Post

I was right -- you are better at owning people in the face when I'm not with you.

[Ross Hendrie]

Was generally alright (forgive my vote I found it somewhat better first time round), but there were a lot of things that annoyed me and rather spoiled the arc for me.

- Torchwood: was there really a point in them being in this arc at all? Given the part they played in this episode, not really.
- Mickey: Apart from Torchwood continuity's sake, did he really need to be here?
- Jackie... need I say more.
- LALZ WE MADE TEH DR FEEL BAD ULTIMATE VICTORY!1!!!11!11!1
- Osterhagen Key: Apart from playing a part in the last point... did it really need to be dreamed up? I would find it worrying that UNIT's most secret and ultimate weapon is a planetwide suicide button...
- The regeneration thing... why did they have to have a regeneration if they're not going to have a new Doctor? On top of that, the two Doctors thing wasn't explained well.

[Superkid11]

Originally Posted by Ross Hendrie

- Osterhagen Key: Apart from playing a part in the last point... did it really need to be dreamed up? I would find it worrying that UNIT's most secret and ultimate weapon is a planetwide suicide button...

I agree for the most part, but it's better than a reset button.

[Megan]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

I was right -- you are better at owning people in the face when I'm not with you.

It's easier to own in the face when I don't have to be around you playing Keff and Murray. Both of them kill brain cells and I need those for maximum pwnage.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Megan

It's easier to own in the face when I don't have to be around you playing Keff and Murray. Both of them kill brain cells and I need those for maximum pwnage.

Whoops.

[Ross Hendrie]

Also, let it be known that "Journey's End" was the biggest flop in TV history.

[BritCanuck]

I don't usually download the episodes, but I made an exception for the last two of this series because of all the spoilers now flying around freely post-UK-broadcast, so here's what I thought of "Journey's End".

Originally Posted by Ross Hendrie

Also, let it be known that "Journey's End" was the biggest flop in TV history.

Perhaps creatively, but 9+ million viewers - the Beeb's saying, "Meh, we'll take it."

Although it didn't quite live up to what we got with "The Stolen Earth" (great cliffhanger, but you just knew that hand would come into play at some point after the close-up earlier in that episode), I thought "Journey's End" was fun. Not great, but fun. Lacking in the areas everyone else here has already discussed in greater, more explicit detail, but hey, it's an RTD Season Finale, those almost always lack substance and logic, big time. (See below.)

I suspect that it may have been painful for some to see the Daleks rendered utterly harmless, but this has, in fact, been done before (may I recommend part two of the Jon Pertwee installment "Deth to the Daleks"). That they were defeated virtually single-handed by Ms. Bovvered (who was actually fun to watch through all that - female Doctor, anyone?) may indeed inflict even more despair on Dalek Lovers everywhere, not to mention seeing them getting pushed around by Rose and Sarah-Jane - although something like that has also happened in the past (Pat Troughton's "Evil of the Daleks", the cliffhanger to Part Five - "Trains...trains...trains...").

So, "Journey's End" - far from perfect. Total pantomine in a lot of places. Not the best of the series, obviously. Not even close when a brand new -4/10 rating is specially introduced here for it. But hey, it's RTD's last Season Finale (yay), so it will likely start going uphill from here, now that Little Mr. Moffat's starting to gain control of the remote. "Journey's End" - something of a mess. But boy was it fun.



Past RTD Season Finales: "Parting of the Ways" was great, but I can't help but think that the whole "Bad Wolf" thing is still largely unresolved. And I'm guessing that Danny could probably indicate at least ten problems with "Last of the Time Lords" and a hundred for "Journey's End". "Doomsday" might be more of a challenge, since it actually got a few things right - 1) Daleks vs. Cybermen - tell me the fans haven't dreamed of that for decades, and 2) a suitable, dramatic send-off for Rose, the emotional impact of which many felt might be badly diluted by her return this season - and it was. Nothing against Billie, she's fantastic, but Danny's always maintained that writing the character out in "Doomsday" would have been better off remaining as canon.

Still, nice to see a happy ending. I'm a hapless sucker for those.

[James P.]

This was just an odd episode in my opinion. I mean, if they were towing Earth back and there were gale force winds blowing while it was being towed, what about the people outside? Did the Doctor think, "Oh, well, they'll just die. No harm done. Just killing a lotta people who are dumb." or what? And wouldn't the stars that were in the way strike the Earth as well?

And WTF up with the Ostrohagen Key? Why would anyone in their right mind invent somethin' like that!? And U.N.I.T. being the ones who invented it, too! Last option my ass, you don't blow up the fucking planet as a last option.

(I'm only posting so I'm not kicked off. But I really needed to get that off my chest.)

[Ronnie Rowlands]

[Megan]

Originally Posted by James P.

And wouldn't the stars that were in the way strike the Earth as well?

Stop, think about the logistics of that question, and then brace yourself for a shocking new revelation:

You are a moron.

[Ross Hendrie]

Clearly this guy has no idea why space is actually called space. Funnily enough it's because an absolutely astronomical proportion of it is... empty space.

[Superkid11]

Plus it probably went into Hyperspace or the Time Vortex, so it wouldn't bump into any stars even if space weren't all that empty.
I mean, if it didn't go into either one of those it would have taken an incomprehensible amount of time to get it back in place.

[Josef Kenny]

Sid Sutton had to put a tube on the end of his camera so that stars wouldn't collide into it.

[Bajoran Rogue]

Although not physically unwatchable, I have voted as such because staring at a blank wall would have been a better utilisation of my time.

A few things which regrettably have clung to my mind after over a week:

RTD has no sense of scale; 25 nukes can blow up the planet? Aye right.

Donna saying a bunch of random words destroyed the Daleks. I'm confused; is Doctor Who meant to be science fiction or fantasy?

The last 15 or 20 minutes seemed completely superfluous. The whole saying goodbye thing could have been easily compressed into 2 or 3 minutes as opposed to drawing it out into something which was most of the reason this episode was over an hour long.

Why was the Earth the last planet left? What purpose did that serve? It hardly served as a problem at all.

Probably more, but none which can come to mind right now.


Oh, also, hi, I'm back.

[Jamie Minty]

I'm not going to stand a chance arguing my point but I loved it but didn't like the fact that we had 3 gadgets that very nearly saved the world. Thank God they weren't used but fighting and creeping past Daleks could have been more interesting.

Lucky Jack was with Sarah because she would never have detonated the Warp Star, I couldn't see her doing it. Especially as shes so keen to get back to Luke!

Oh and what the hell Murray. Danny's post on another thread reminded me that Murray's music was pretty much all recycled and the some cues were just awful!

[5th Doctor]

I hated the regeneration, what cheap cliff hanger, hate it that they messed around like that with one of the principles of the show