Debney Mix by Zeo

[Ben Dawson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

oh also was i right about Hans Zimmer using real string instruments and that that fuck off cello being played wasn't a hologram or some other digital simulation of an instrument? ah yes, so I was.

Smallest of victories I'm afraid, it still doesn't change the fact that most of the score was done entirely using midi instruments. But that's neither here nor there. And as far as the Millennium Dome goes, I could care less if it was there or not, but this case is a much more personal thing, so I think a more intelligent answer than "it's shit" is needed. I know you said more about it than that, but you played particular emphasis on the "it's shit" part. And what's more, you went on and on about it in later posts.
Maybe the best thing that could've been done is for you to have said your piece then left it, 'cos you didn't bring anything else to the table that Zeo could've taken away and thought about to improve his work. Instead of just dragging the same points over and over.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Ben Dawson

Hey, all I can say is that saying that a midi file of something is shit simply because it is midi is quite frankly, closed minded and unintelligent. And it just shows that you know absolutely NOTHING in how to create, orchestrate or program music yourself. So until you can even do an ounce of what Zeo did with midi, don't criticize his capabilities.

Now, in my honest opinion, there are very minor flaws in the piece. But it is for the most part, very accurate. All I can say is that if Zeo is new at this, then he's very good for a beginner, 'cos it is a very tight recording.

Here's something Ronnie didn't know. Quite often, recordings that he will have heard would have been entirely midi based, even though sounding like an authentic orchestra. The Dark Knight for example, the entire score was made ENTIRELY on Cubase, and there isn't a real instrument to be found in it, all midi.

Right, sorry to jump in late in the game, but I'd thought I'd wait until I had something really valid to say.

Edit: If those were serious comments, then I'd hate to see what an unserious one is. 'Cos quite frankly, what little criticism that was out there was outweighed by needless insulting.

Originally Posted by Ben Dawson

Smallest of victories I'm afraid, it still doesn't change the fact that most of the score was done entirely using midi instruments. But that's neither here nor there. And as far as the Millennium Dome goes, I could care less if it was there or not, but this case is a much more personal thing, so I think a more intelligent answer than "it's shit" is needed. I know you said more about it than that, but you played particular emphasis on the "it's shit" part. And what's more, you went on and on about it in later posts.
Maybe the best thing that could've been done is for you to have said your piece then left it, 'cos you didn't bring anything else to the table that Zeo could've taken away and thought about to improve his work. Instead of just dragging the same points over and over.

I declare Ben the winner of the thread for these two posts.

[Ronnie Rowlands]

What, for using boring reasoning? He's making out like I'm actually trying to prove a point or win an argument here.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

What, for using boring reasoning? He's making out like I'm actually trying to prove a point or win an argument here.

No, he's making it out that you're being a twat, and he's right.

[Ronnie Rowlands]

Not my fault if I didn't like the mix. And I'm sure if Ben hadn't steamrollered in when I'd pretty much finished I wouldn't have continued to reiterate that I thought the mix was shit. Oops, did it again there, see.

In fact, it would've been best left when I said, in a normal manner, that he should consider getting more authentic sounding instruments. But oh well.

[Zeo]

Ok cool debate over. Can we get to the feedback now please?

P.S Thanks to Danny, Ben, Kody and Dr Videoman for your support.

[Kody]

[Dr. Videoman]

Originally Posted by Kody

I must agree!

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowlands

Not my fault if I didn't like the mix.

And that's not what anybody here is faulting you for.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Zeo

Ok cool debate over. Can we get to the feedback now please?

P.S Thanks to Danny, Ben, Kody and Dr Videoman for your support.

FYI, I used to do the "let's all get along" thing. I gave up on being a perfect, friendly forum admin years ago. I'm perfectly happy to bash people on my site who are being idiots. Not only are you not being an idiot, but you're also looking for serious feedback and trying to improve. Both pluses in my book.

First of all, the tempo. I just looked into it for you and it should be at 120 bpm. It's honestly hard to properly listen and pick things out of the mix at 140 bpm, so I may miss some things I would otherwise comment on.

First main comment is that you're missing the theme's "second layer" (if you don't know what that is, see here or here). There isn't one during the bridge, but there is one after the bridge (although it's fucking weird—John Debney really didn't get the bassline).

Your note timings are also a bit too rigid, like they've been snapped too tightly to a grid. For example in melody 1, during the second half, when the notes fall back down to B they go "daa-daa-daaaa" instead of "daaaaaa-da-daaaa." That may not make any sense to you and I may have to make you an audio demo but I'm lazy so hopefully you'll understand that.

Anyway, start there, whip me up a second draft, and I'll continue to comment then.

[Recurring Villain]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

I declare Ben the winner of the thread for these two posts.

i think we all lose for posting in such a fail thread

[Zeo]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

First of all, the tempo. I just looked into it for you and it should be at 120 bpm.

Sorted.

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

First main comment is that you're missing the theme's "second layer" (if you don't know what that is, see here or here). There isn't one during the bridge, but there is one after the bridge (although it's fucking weird—John Debney really didn't get the bassline).

Yeah that's in but wasn't finished my bad.

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Your note timings are also a bit too rigid, like they've been snapped too tightly to a grid. For example in melody 1, during the second half, when the notes fall back down to B they go "daa-daa-daaaa" instead of "daaaaaa-da-daaaa."

You gonna have to show me what you mean, cos if I understand you right the daa-da-daa bit is correct. I've compared it with the actual debney version and it is 95% the same it terms of note length.

I've uploaded a new version with the correct tempo, tightened the transition from the bridge to the melody, fixed the intro and the second bassline. But I'm afraid the instruments are still rubbish.

[ATV642]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

they go "daa-daa-daaaa" instead of "daaaaaa-da-daaaa."

I didn't understand what you meant there Danny before Zeo slowed it down but now he has I completely agree with you. you should try and fix that, Zeo.

[Zeo]

Apparently I have 2 versions of the Debney theme and 1 of them has a slightly faster tempo. 1 is from the official TV Movie Soundtrack and the other was on a special one off CD that was never released officially in the UK, although I got a copy from the Who Shop like 10+ years ago which I can't seem to find.

The first is the opening theme that fades to the music at the start of the show, and the second has a longer intro and ends with the ending of the closing theme.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Zeo

Sorted.

Much better.

Originally Posted by Zeo

Yeah that's in but wasn't finished my bad.

No worries.

Originally Posted by Zeo

You gonna have to show me what you mean, cos if I understand you right the daa-da-daa bit is correct. I've compared it with the actual debney version and it is 95% the same it terms of note length.

Not note length, note timing. *sigh* Looks like I'll have to do the demo.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/556085/debneydemo.mp3

First is yours, second is how it should be. Tiny thing, I know, and seems even stupider to comment on after making the demo, but it nags at me.

Originally Posted by Zeo

Apparently I have 2 versions of the Debney theme and 1 of them has a slightly faster tempo. 1 is from the official TV Movie Soundtrack and the other was on a special one off CD that was never released officially in the UK, although I got a copy from the Who Shop like 10+ years ago which I can't seem to find.

The first is the opening theme that fades to the music at the start of the show, and the second has a longer intro and ends with the ending of the closing theme.

I talked to Pete about this last night, who noticed as well. This is because the CD versions for some reason were recorded as though the movie played at 25 fps instead of 24. Pitch/time-shifting them by -0.707 semitones will correct it.

[Zeo]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Not note length, note timing. *sigh* Looks like I'll have to do the demo.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/556085/debneydemo.mp3

Aah ok that makes sense the "daaaaa-daa-daaaa" thing doesn't really denote a timing issue to me more a note length issue.

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

I talked to Pete about this last night, who noticed as well. This is because the CD versions for some reason were recorded as though the movie played at 25 fps instead of 24. Pitch/time-shifting them by -0.707 semitones will correct it.

The one I'm using atm for comparison is the one from the promotional CD not the official soundtrack and that is the correct tempo.

[Zeo]

New version uploaded. Any tips on how I should do the middle 8 to melody transition? It's hard to tell listening to the official version what's going on.