Doctor Who 4x11 - "Turn Left"

[Ross Hendrie]

Maybe he didn't want to regenerate... he seemed to be in "no mercy/feeling sorry for myself and dont want to go on anymore" mode during that scene on the staircase.

And Ronn, I was wrong, so let's leave it at that.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by MI7

This is also backed up by the Master in both Utopia and LotTL, when he has to physically trigger the process both times. Ditto the Ninth Doctor in The Parting of the Ways, when he says he is "doing it right now".

Because RTD has destroyed the concept of regeneration. See my Last of the Time Lords review for more bashing.

Originally Posted by MI7

There's been no magic safety feature seen that says that Time Lords only regenerate when it is "safe" to do so.

Analysis of that kind of safety could not take place on a biological level -- I am saying that regeneration waits for physical safety (something which can be determined on a biological level, i.e. not occurring while underwater).

Originally Posted by MI7

Besides, who says he even wanted to regenerate and survive at that point?

Regeneration, for the last time, is not a process of will -- it is a biological fact.

[Mister_Wilbur]

Eh... It didn't really do much for me. Why can't the apocalypse ever be fun? Instead it's always depressing... (4/10)

[Ronnie Rowlands]

Originally Posted by Mister_Wilbur

Why can't the apocalypse ever be fun? Instead it's always depressing... (4/10)

Well, that's blown my review out of the water, hasn't it.

[Josef Kenny]

You can stop yourself from sneezing, but not regenerating. That's the law of life.

[Jamie Minty]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Wikipedia: "The 1996 TV movie showed the Doctor's regeneration delayed for more than three hours (he is declared dead on the operating table at 10:03 PM [...] with the Eighth Doctor explicitly stating that he was "dead" prior to regeneration..."

Eat it.

I mean seriously, what the hell? You can only regenerate if you're dead. Otherwise there's nothing to trigger the regeneration!

Well cut me some slack I haven't seen more than two 4 classic stories.

I just assumed it happens when near death as thats what it has been throughout the new series.

[Jez]

I assumed it was fictional...but according to some people's reactions, perhaps it is RL. Wow!

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Jamie Minty

Well cut me some slack I haven't seen more than two 4 classic stories.

Slack cut. Go watch more old series.

Originally Posted by Jamie Minty

I just assumed it happens when near death as thats what it has been throughout the new series.

Yeah, because RTD has screwed up the concept of regeneration, like I said.

[Jamie Minty]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Slack cut. Go watch more old series.

I definitely will.

[MI7]

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Analysis of that kind of safety could not take place on a biological level -- I am saying that regeneration waits for physical safety (something which can be determined on a biological level, i.e. not occurring while underwater).
Regeneration, for the last time, is not a process of will -- it is a biological fact.

Same rule applies that I mentioned before then. If regeneration is automatic it would simply keep occuring until all lives have been used up.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the "Regeneration is biological and only happens when you're in physical safety".

And I suppose Romana had to shoot herself to regenerate all those times rather than willing herself to do so...
Ditto Azmael, who did not will himself to regenerate (as stated in the episode) at all? It was biological.

[Kody]

Originally Posted by MI7

Same rule applies that I mentioned before then. If regeneration is automatic it would simply keep occuring until all lives have been used up.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the "Regeneration is biological and only happens when you're in physical safety".

And I suppose Romana had to shoot herself to regenerate all those times rather than willing herself to do so...
Ditto Azmael, who did not will himself to regenerate (as stated in the episode) at all? It was biological.

Just because you could will yourself to do it like Romana did in a perfectly safe environment, doesn't mean it won't happen on death to.

And no, I'm sorry, but Rassilon is the little genius bugger that setup regeneration. He wouldn't make it keep regenerating someone under water, it has to have some kind of a saftey catch.

When the previous Doctors regenerated, they were about to die, as in death was sure. Pertwee didn't even get to finish what he was saying before he died, then regenerated.

Either way, RTD has messed up the concept imo and it's still somewhat murky in areas. I think the excuse he used in Turn Left showed a lack of creativity and was forced in.

[MI7]

Originally Posted by Kody

Just because you could will yourself to do it like Romana did in a perfectly safe environment, doesn't mean it won't happen on death to.

And no, I'm sorry, but Rassilon is the little genius bugger that setup regeneration. He wouldn't make it keep regenerating someone under water, it has to have some kind of a saftey catch.

When the previous Doctors regenerated, they were about to die, as in death was sure. Pertwee didn't even get to finish what he was saying before he died, then regenerated.

Either way, RTD has messed up the concept imo and it's still somewhat murky in areas. I think the excuse he used in Turn Left showed a lack of creativity and was forced in.

It's never been stated that Rassilon did anything relating to regeneration...where are you getting this from? He invented the Gallifreyan transduction barrier, TARDIS technology, Time Travel (with Omega) and validium...but it never says he had anything to do with regeneration.

Of course the Doctor would only regenerate when near death, otherwise it would be a pointless waste of a life that he apparently only has a limited amount of (you said it yourself, about to die ). That's why there's so much debate over Romana's 'regeneration'.

The fact that the series often states that regeneration is not guarenteed and can often fail. The Doctor alone has had 3 near-failed regenerations, one that nearly didn't occur and all and one that was extremely delayed. Out of 9 regenerations, that's 5 that have had some sort of issue and of the remaining 4 one was forced on him and one remains unseen, so we don't know the exact circumstances. That seems a pretty haphazard "biological process" to be honest. The fact that they so often go wrong (even on Gallifrey where the Sisters of Karn have to supply Elixir to help some Time Lords complete successful regenerations) means that there really doesn't appear to be any failsafes in the process at all. Coupled with the fact that Gallifreyans who are not Time Lords are often seen to die and not regenerate seems to suggest the process is not a biological one but one that is either implanted or learnt at the Time Lord Academy.

The Doctor has suggested on many occasions (such as The Unquiet Dead), the Doctor has expressed a fear of dying rather than regenerating, again perhaps illustrating a non-automatic process. Also, stasers are seen to kill Time Lords outright, such as the Castellan and the Time Lord President in The Deadly Assassin. Surely if the process was automatic rather than initiated by the Time Lord himself, such a weapon would not be possible?

I really don't see how RTD "messed up" regeneration? If anything, the TV movie came closest to overwriting the process as we know it, as the Doctor regenerates after several hours rather than immediately. RTD simply goes by stated continuity...the Ninth Doctor regenerates when mortally wounded as does the Master. The Master forces back his regeneration in the same way as the Fifth delays it in Caves of Androzani and the reverse of Azmael forcing regeneration to occur in The Twin Dilemma. All RTD has done is go by established fact.
Again, I also can't think of how it "lacked creativity"? Can you honestly think of a better explaination for the Doctors' death?

[Kody]

Originally Posted by MI7

It's never been stated that Rassilon did anything relating to regeneration...where are you getting this from? He invented the Gallifreyan transduction barrier, TARDIS technology, Time Travel (with Omega) and validium...but it never says he had anything to do with regeneration.

It's been stated in the 8th Doctor Audio dramas, where you hear it from Rassilon himself. It's also been mentioned in other media. If you don't consider these canon, eh, then there's no point of this discussion continuing between you and I.

^ The John Peel-authored book The Gallifrey Chronicles attributes regeneration to a "nanomolecular virus" that rebuilds the body. The audio play Zagreus attributes regeneration to "self-replicating biogenic molecules" designed by Rassilon, which do much the same thing, with a built-in limit of twelve regenerations to prevent the molecules' decay. According to the Virgin Missing Adventures book The Crystal Bucephalus by Craig Hinton, Time Lords have triple-helix DNA: the third strand was added by Rassilon to make regeneration possible.

Originally Posted by MI7

Coupled with the fact that Gallifreyans who are not Time Lords are often seen to die and not regenerate seems to suggest the process is not a biological one but one that is either implanted or learnt at the Time Lord Academy.

Well, that's because we've always been lead to belive there's a big difference betwen being a Gallifreyan and a Time Lord.

One major reason for that is, yet again, Rassilon influenced stuff that they most likely inject into your DNA or something at the academy.

The Rassilon Imprimatur is the name given to the symbiotic nuclei that allow Time Lords to withstand the molecular stresses of time travel and grant them a link to their TARDIS time machines.

I'm pretty sure that's been mentioned directly in the TV series before.

Originally Posted by MI7

I really don't see how RTD "messed up" regeneration? If anything, the TV movie came closest to overwriting the process as we know it, as the Doctor regenerates after several hours rather than immediately. RTD simply goes by stated continuity...the Ninth Doctor regenerates when mortally wounded as does the Master. The Master forces back his regeneration in the same way as the Fifth delays it in Caves of Androzani and the reverse of Azmael forcing regeneration to occur in The Twin Dilemma. All RTD has done is go by established fact.
Again, I also can't think of how it "lacked creativity"? Can you honestly think of a better explaination for the Doctors' death?

To say the Doctor would be killed in such an easy, brush off worthy manner, goes against everything we know about him I'd say. The fact he could just be surprised and drowned really makes the whole thing just sub-par and sounds like an excuse to me.

No, I can't come up with a better explanation for his death off the top of my head. But I wouldn't have needed to think of one because I'd never write such a crap story.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Kody

No, I can't come up with a better explanation for his death off the top of my head. But I wouldn't have needed to think of one because I'd never write such a crap story.

He could have said it had something to do with that huon energy crap from The Runaway Bride. The Doctor could have been accidentally dosed with residual huon energy that escaped when the underground base was destroyed or something and it inhibited the regenerative process, when in the actual timeline the Doctor made it out in time and thus the energy release was harmless and it merely dispersed. After all, the Doctor did say in The Runaway Bride that the Time Lords supposedly removed huon energy from existence... inhibition of the regenerative process would be a pretty damn good reason for them to do so, considering they're not really supposed to get involved in most things.

[Marinedalek]

OMFG I CAN'T LIKE THIS EPISODE COS ROSE IS IN IT

In case anyone was wondering, those weren't my thoughts, but I have a feeling they belong to the person who started this thread...

I rather enjoyed the episode (though perhaps watching on an 8" black and white TV in a tent enhanced the viewing experience), which while masquerading as a "Donna is important" episode actually proved how important the Doctor is - Donna's just another link in the chain.

Anyway. My holiday wasn't ruined by this episode, nor have I hired hitmen to go after RTD - in fact I'm glad that an episode like this went out amongst the dumbed-down drivel that's on every other channel at the moment.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Marinedalek

OMFG I CAN'T LIKE THIS EPISODE COS ROSE IS IN IT

In case anyone was wondering, those weren't my thoughts, but I have a feeling they belong to the person who started this thread...

You wound me, sir. Go back over the earlier posts in this thread. Kody and Megan have summed up my thoughts and reasoning very well.

Or, to put it in slightly less eloquent terms:

OMFG I CAN'T LIKE THIS EPISODE COS IT ACTUALLY SUCKED

[Alexus]

It's been stated in the 8th Doctor Audio dramas, where you hear it from Rassilon himself. It's also been mentioned in other media. If you don't consider these canon, eh, then there's no point of this discussion continuing between you and I.

If only Doctor Who audio dramas and books were canon.

Shame they aren't.

[Danny Stewart]

Originally Posted by Alexus

If only Doctor Who audio dramas and books were canon.

Shame they aren't.

If only the new series was canon.

Shame it's not.

[Alexus]

Happily, it is. Canon is dictated by the BBC, not by you

[Ross Hendrie]

What is considered canon by the fans is often of more relevence, Alex.

Fortunately, with the exception of Danny's elitist sect, the majority of fans do enjoy the new series.