Gold theme discussion

Danny Stewart · #1 May 30, 2007, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by scrotnig

That would be fantastic Danny...I really like what you've done with Fool's Gold, it works incredibly well.

Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by scrotnig

The Fathers Day one on YouTube arguably works better that the current "orchestral" arrangement used on the actual show, which to me is flawed (and also does NOT match the opening music like the series one version did, which is annoying).

I have to agree with you. Originally upon hearing the new TCI arrangement I was elated at the return of the bridge, but after living with this theme for a year and a half, I'm starting to downright hate it. It's way too bombastically orchestral, and the timing (and in fact the whole mix) feels awfully imprecise to me. I'd much prefer more balance between the orchestra and the electronic elements -- perhaps 60/40, instead of the more 90/10 thing he has going on right now. And I really wish the orchestra would calm down a little bit! They're not supposed to be so enthusiastic... dark and mysterious would be so much better.

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Add to that the botched edits they keep doing which to anyone really familiar with the themes jar like mad, and you probably catch my drift.

Not Murray Gold's fault, but again, I agree with you -- very incompetently done. They could probably give it to Murray to do and he would finish it in the same amount of time but it would sound a lot better.

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Anyway...back to the point...if you *are* able at any time to get the opening and closing edits of Fools Gold up, I would be eternally grateful!

I'll try and get on this for you tonight when I'm home. If not, then certainly in the next couple of days.

MI7 · #2 May 30, 2007, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

I have to agree with you. Originally upon hearing the new TCI arrangement I was elated at the return of the bridge, but after living with this theme for a year and a half, I'm starting to downright hate it. It's way too bombastically orchestral, and the timing (and in fact the whole mix) feels awfully imprecise to me. I'd much prefer more balance between the orchestra and the electronic elements -- perhaps 60/40, instead of the more 90/10 thing he has going on right now. And I really wish the orchestra would calm down a little bit! They're not supposed to be so enthusiastic... dark and mysterious would be so much better.

Bombast and enthusiasm are good.

Not Murray Gold's fault, but again, I agree with you -- very incompetently done. They could probably give it to Murray to do and he would finish it in the same amount of time but it would sound a lot better.

Agreed. The butchery at the end of Human Nature is the worst so far I think...closely followed by Rise of the Cybermen. And of course The Runaway Bride was hardly perfection...etc.

scrotnig · #3 May 30, 2007, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by MI7

Bombast and enthusiasm are good.

Agreed. The butchery at the end of Human Nature is the worst so far I think...closely followed by Rise of the Cybermen. And of course The Runaway Bride was hardly perfection...etc.

Rise Of The Cybermen was MUCH worse....

To be honest for episodes like the above where no trailer is played over the music itself, why don't they use the edit from Doomsday which takes the radiophonic howl straight into the melody? It wasn't perfect, but it was passable, and would have worked fine for Human Nature.

The regular amateurish butchery of the theme music is very odd for the Beeb's flagship drama. They need to rework it with three proper mixes: the standard one as now, a "reversed" version for two parters where they want the trailer at the end, and a shorter version for where there is no trailer at all (eg end of series).

Even Crossroads (cheesy crap seventies/eighties British soap for those who don't know) used to have three different edits of the theme music for the different lengths needed.

scrotnig · #4 May 30, 2007, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Thank you very much!

I have to agree with you. Originally upon hearing the new TCI arrangement I was elated at the return of the bridge, but after living with this theme for a year and a half, I'm starting to downright hate it. It's way too bombastically orchestral, and the timing (and in fact the whole mix) feels awfully imprecise to me. I'd much prefer more balance between the orchestra and the electronic elements -- perhaps 60/40, instead of the more 90/10 thing he has going on right now. And I really wish the orchestra would calm down a little bit! They're not supposed to be so enthusiastic... dark and mysterious would be so much better.

Not Murray Gold's fault, but again, I agree with you -- very incompetently done. They could probably give it to Murray to do and he would finish it in the same amount of time but it would sound a lot better.

I'll try and get on this for you tonight when I'm home. If not, then certainly in the next couple of days.

Thanks.

The series one music was perfect in my opinion, as I'm not all that fussed for the so called "middle eight", nice though it is.

In series one the closing theme exactly matched the opening theme, and actually sounded like a decent rework of the seventies themes. Then for some reason Murray made it all orchestral from TCI onwards and it just doesn't work for me. the final section after the bridge could in fact be another piece of music altogether, it is not really part of the Doctor Who theme as I know it.

Then there's the fact that they did not compose a matching piece for the opening titles, meaning they do not match even slightly. I begin to wonder if those in charge simply haven't noticed this. It jars really badly and is simply unprofessional.

Then finally these wretched edits which are frankly a joke. They are a disaster. They don't even use the same ones twice! Just where exactly do they want the trailers? I thought it was single parters at the start, two parters at the end to avoid spoiling the suspense. But now it's all over the place, and sometimes (as with Human Nature and The Lazarus Experiment) not even played over the music at all. Which is fine, but instead of having a proper edit to cope with that, they simply cobble it together like a five year old with a spray gun!

It lets things down badly, and it's been happening ever since Parting Of The Ways....I am amazed nobody at the BBC has said anything.

MI7 · #5 May 30, 2007, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Rise Of The Cybermen was MUCH worse....

To be honest for episodes like the above where no trailer is played over the music itself, why don't they use the edit from Doomsday which takes the radiophonic howl straight into the melody? It wasn't perfect, but it was passable, and would have worked fine for Human Nature.

Had to go back to check what you meant about the cut right into melody 1 but I see what you mean. I actually quite like that and it makes me think that Murray might have done that one himself.

Oh and believe me. Human Nature's is much, much, much worse than Rise of the Cybermen. The edit into the bridge wasn't very good and the edit out was horrendous on ROTC, true...but Human Nature's really is the worst.

Human Nature Closing

scrotnig · #6 May 30, 2007, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by MI7

Had to go back to check what you meant about the cut right into melody 1 but I see what you mean. I actually quite like that and it makes me think that Murray might have done that one himself.

Oh and believe me. Human Nature's is much, much, much worse than Rise of the Cybermen. The edit into the bridge wasn't very good and the edit out was horrendous on ROTC, true...but Human Nature's really is the worst.

Human Nature Closing

Hmm...playing that, I still think ROTC edges it for sheer crapness. Mainly because it is mixing two incompatible versions of the theme. At least in Human Nature it's just a cut into the same music, and it vaguely fits. In ROTC it doesn't even fit.

I've got better mixes on my PC that I think Danny may have done last year, there's a shorter version of the main end theme that puts the bridge/middle eight into the part where the trailer usually plays, but in the "right" place. That is virtually seamless and is about the right length.

MI7 · #7 May 30, 2007, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by scrotnig

Hmm...playing that, I still think ROTC edges it for sheer crapness. Mainly because it is mixing two incompatible versions of the theme. At least in Human Nature it's just a cut into the same music, and it vaguely fits. In ROTC it doesn't even fit.

I've got better mixes on my PC that I think Danny may have done last year, there's a shorter version of the main end theme that puts the bridge/middle eight into the part where the trailer usually plays, but in the "right" place. That is virtually seamless and is about the right length.

Aye I think the cuts of the theme Danny made are far superior. Only problem is that they're still too long for the credit sequences, I've tried editing them in.

The really sad thing is that the edits they do would sound better if they just learned how to use fade through instead of cutting all the time.

Rise of the Cybermen Original
Rise of the Cybermen "fixed"

Human Nature Original
Human Nature "fixed"

scrotnig · #8 May 30, 2007, 5:18 PM

M17, do you have a "clean" version of the standard series 2/3 closing music? That Human Nature edit suggests you might have

The only one I have is a patched together one that Danny did that has a piece of the series 1 theme spliced in to make it all work.

I've been looking for a full version for over a year!

Danny Stewart · #9 May 30, 2007, 5:52 PM

I am shocked that I haven't posted it here before... I've had it for ages.

http://www.dannystewart.com/music/s2closing.mp3

Let me know if you want it lossless.

Danny Stewart · #10 May 31, 2007, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by scrotnig

a "reversed" version for two parters where they want the trailer at the end

Your wish is my command!

http://www.dannystewart.com/music/revs2close.mp3

scrotnig · #11 June 5, 2007, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Danny Stewart

Your wish is my command!

http://www.dannystewart.com/music/revs2close.mp3

Fantastic Danny, thanks.

Danny Stewart · #12 June 5, 2007, 5:27 PM

I realized the other day that it's too short. Wouldn't fit an entire credits sequence. Might go back and redo it, might not -- gives you an idea as to how something like that would sound, though, just the same.

BritCanuck · #13 June 17, 2007, 4:58 PM

The "reversed" edit of the theme sounds great as it is, I think. Well done.
BBC is more likely to speed up the scrolling credits to match a shorter closing theme.

Judging by the recently released soundtrack album, I think a lot of Murray Gold's music is actually quite good.
The key is that he, the BBC, and the National Orchestra of Wales (as good as they are, and they are good) need to stop tinkering with the music every few episodes. Then you'll see positive progress.

Danny Stewart · #14 June 17, 2007, 5:33 PM

Thanks for your comments. Murray's music is very good on the whole, I agree. It's just a bit too bombastic in some places for my tastes, but having discussed this with him, I know it's not his fault -- it's what the BBC wants from him. He's just doing his job -- and doing it well, too, I might add.